Prayers for the dead

[Not David]

I was asked why Orthodox pray for the dead if there is no Purgatory. Also does that mean that after one does, there is still a chance to get saved?

 

[HTacianas]

I was asked why Orthodox pray for the dead if there is no Purgatory. Also does that mean that after one does, there is still a chance to get saved?

The Orthodox Church does not hold to the doctrine of purgatory as the Western Church does. There is within Orthodoxy the idea of an intermediate state of souls who do not pass directly into the presence of God. We do not know what that state is, only that it is of an indeterminate but temporary period when prayers are beneficial to them.

Father Thomas Hopko once said that if the Western Church held purgatory to be a hospital rather than a prison we would all agree on it.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I pray for dead people because God being eternal, not limited to time, can apply it to them before their death. Far as we know that prayer may have God interact with a person in a comma or just before death.

 

[JohnB445]

The Bible does say something about being cleansed by fire. Like the bad works are thrown in a fire, it won't be pleasant, but they still get into heaven. Just rewards (precious stones) may not be there.

I don't know what kind of rewards there are in heaven for our good works, but I am sure its worth it.

 

[Barney2.0]

There is purification for the dead, we just don’t believe in the Latin ideas of purgatory being a place of fire, brimstone, and punishment. I personally believe Theosis is actually a wonderful experience, nothing like the nightmarish place the Latins portray it as, I never did understand how Roman Catholics believe souls destined for heaven end up in some sort of hellish realm of fire and tortures to be purified in before entering heaven.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I was asked why Orthodox pray for the dead if there is no Purgatory. Also does that mean that after one does, there is still a chance to get saved?

It sounds like the question is "if there's no purgatory, what is the point of praying for people who have died?" That's simply a narrow understanding of the ways in which we may pray for people - but then I have heard Catholics place a lot of emphasis on praying for souls in purgatory, so perhaps that has narrowed their view.

As others have said - God can act on prayers at any point in time. The souls are in an intermediate state before the final judgement at any rate. We say that state is a foretaste of their eternal destiny, but it could be didactic for some since God will do whatever He can to save whoever can be saved.

We do say that prayers benefit the dead, but we don't have any dogma about exactly how. It's possible that in some cases it's akin to the rich man who asked for a finger dipped in water on his tongue - a bit of relief. We simply accept that prayers made in love are not wasted, but how they are answered is up to God.

 

[ArmyMatt]

to the OP, the prayers of the Church have power because of Christ. the souls can be released through prayer because of God's mercy.

 

[Ronald]

It sounds like the question is "if there's no purgatory, what is the point of praying for people who have died?" That's simply a narrow understanding of the ways in which we may pray for people - but then I have heard Catholics place a lot of emphasis on praying for souls in purgatory, so perhaps that has narrowed their view.

As others have said - God can act on prayers at any point in time. The souls are in an intermediate state before the final judgement at any rate. We say that state is a foretaste of their eternal destiny, but it could be didactic for some since God will do whatever He can to save whoever can be saved.

We do say that prayers benefit the dead, but we don't have any dogma about exactly how. It's possible that in some cases it's akin to the rich man who asked for a finger dipped in water on his tongue - a bit of relief. We simply accept that prayers made in love are not wasted, but how they are answered is up to God.

Abraham told the Rich man that his state was fixed and that there was a great chasm between them and that no one could cross over to the other side. The story in Luke 16:23-31 is not a parable that Jesus was telling. Parables do not mention specific names of real people like Abraham and Moses. Lazarus died and went to Paradise, where Abraham gave him a greeting, a hug and the Rich man was in Hades. Hades is not an abstract location, it is a place where unbelievers go. To say that Purgatory exists is to say that Jesus work on the Cross was not sufficient, that somehow more needs to be done. He died for our sins, past, present and future and there is nothing more, (by works or prayers) that can be done once a person is dead. They are either with the LORD or NOT. Jesus never taught about Purgatory. Jesus said on the Cross, "It is finished!" Then He died and rose again on the third day. He told the person next to him that he would be in Paradise TODAY. This sinner repented and believed in Christ. That was enough. He did not go to Purgatory, He went to be with Christ that day.
Prayers for the dead comfort the living more than anything else. Prayers are talking to God and so if your loved one is in heaven, Jesus will pass on your message to them. But those in Hades ... have no comfort, no hope, they are lost and awaiting destruction.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Abraham told the Rich man that his state was fixed and that there was a great chasm between them and that no one could cross over to the other side. The story in Luke 16:23-31 is not a parable that Jesus was telling. Parables do not mention specific names of real people like Abraham and Moses. Lazarus died and went to Paradise, where Abraham gave him a greeting, a hug and the Rich man was in Hades. Hades is not an abstract location, it is a place where unbelievers go. To say that Purgatory exists is to say that Jesus work on the Cross was not sufficient, that somehow more needs to be done. He died for our sins, past, present and future and there is nothing more, (by works or prayers) that can be done once a person is dead. They are either with the LORD or NOT. Jesus never taught about Purgatory. Jesus said on the Cross, "It is finished!" Then He died and rose again on the third day. He told the person next to him that he would be in Paradise TODAY. This sinner repented and believed in Christ. That was enough. He did not go to Purgatory, He went to be with Christ that day.
Prayers for the dead comfort the living more than anything else. Prayers are talking to God and so if your loved one is in heaven, Jesus will pass on your message to them. But those in Hades ... have no comfort, no hope, they are lost and awaiting destruction.

this is the Orthodox forum so if you could please follow the rules and not post contrary to what we believe.

there is more nuance to the Lazarus story.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Abraham told the Rich man that his state was fixed and that there was a great chasm between them and that no one could cross over to the other side. The story in Luke 16:23-31 is not a parable that Jesus was telling. Parables do not mention specific names of real people like Abraham and Moses. Lazarus died and went to Paradise, where Abraham gave him a greeting, a hug and the Rich man was in Hades. Hades is not an abstract location, it is a place where unbelievers go. To say that Purgatory exists is to say that Jesus work on the Cross was not sufficient, that somehow more needs to be done. He died for our sins, past, present and future and there is nothing more, (by works or prayers) that can be done once a person is dead. They are either with the LORD or NOT. Jesus never taught about Purgatory. Jesus said on the Cross, "It is finished!" Then He died and rose again on the third day. He told the person next to him that he would be in Paradise TODAY. This sinner repented and believed in Christ. That was enough. He did not go to Purgatory, He went to be with Christ that day.
Prayers for the dead comfort the living more than anything else. Prayers are talking to God and so if your loved one is in heaven, Jesus will pass on your message to them. But those in Hades ... have no comfort, no hope, they are lost and awaiting destruction.

And it's a good thing we don't believe in purgatory.

Welcome to TAW.

We have a more developed theology regarding Hades, etc. received from the early Church. Jesus descended into Hades and preached to the souls there.

Yes, prayers for the dead do benefit them, but how is up to God. Nothing prevents Him from having acted upon them as a person faced death, for one example.

 

[ttcmacro]

Abraham told the Rich man that his state was fixed and that there was a great chasm between them and that no one could cross over to the other side. The story in Luke 16:23-31 is not a parable that Jesus was telling. Parables do not mention specific names of real people like Abraham and Moses. Lazarus died and went to Paradise, where Abraham gave him a greeting, a hug and the Rich man was in Hades. Hades is not an abstract location, it is a place where unbelievers go. To say that Purgatory exists is to say that Jesus work on the Cross was not sufficient, that somehow more needs to be done. He died for our sins, past, present and future and there is nothing more, (by works or prayers) that can be done once a person is dead. They are either with the LORD or NOT. Jesus never taught about Purgatory. Jesus said on the Cross, "It is finished!" Then He died and rose again on the third day. He told the person next to him that he would be in Paradise TODAY. This sinner repented and believed in Christ. That was enough. He did not go to Purgatory, He went to be with Christ that day.
Prayers for the dead comfort the living more than anything else. Prayers are talking to God and so if your loved one is in heaven, Jesus will pass on your message to them. But those in Hades ... have no comfort, no hope, they are lost and awaiting destruction.

My evangelical friends often raise this point when I mention praying for the dead. Specifically that this story shows that there can be no changes in one's final destination after death. Okay, I will play along. The story also indicates that Lazarus is in "heaven" because he suffered, and the rich man is in "hell" because he was not generous. There is nothing in this story that directly points to belief in Christ (or religious faith whatsoever, except to the extend that it influences works) as a prerequisite for entering the kingdom of heaven. So if you wish to use to story to support the evangelical paradigm of salvation, you need to ignore the first half of it.

 

[buzuxi02]

Prayers for the dead have nothing to do with whether people are in purgatory or heaven or hell. Ask anyone who is having a memorial service for deceased loved one none are going to tell you they need to be prayed out of Hades. The very fact that the making and eating of Koliva is an intrinsic part of a memorial service based on John 12:24 is proof of this.

 

[Lukaris]

I recall an Orthodox poster in TAW ( cannot remember who) who mentioned that the Lord prayed before raising Lazarus ( John 11:41-42).

 

[abacabb3]

I was asked why Orthodox pray for the dead if there is no Purgatory. Also does that mean that after one does, there is still a chance to get saved?

This might help: First Century Jewish Beliefs About “Purgatory”

In short, it can save those who die in faith and repentance at some level.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I recall an Orthodox poster in TAW ( cannot remember who) who mentioned that the Lord prayed before raising Lazarus ( John 11:41-42).

St Paul does it too for Onesiphorus in 2 Timothy, who had already died before that epistle was written.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Prayers for the dead have nothing to do with whether people are in purgatory or heaven or hell. Ask anyone who is having a memorial service for deceased loved one none are going to tell you they need to be prayed out of Hades. The very fact that the making and eating of Koliva is an intrinsic part of a memorial service based on John 12:24 is proof of this.

while we would not say they need to be prayed out of hades (because only God knows what they need), they certainly can be. and one of the reasons we do pray for the departed is because of that hope.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

I think it's good for those remaining on earth to be able to share their love for the deceased one past the grave. I think that jn some ways it's a very powerful sign and expression of the true love, the love that conquers death. To love someone in prayers after they're dead shows us that the unity in christ is victory. Love has won in eternity, but as with so much other things it's already but just not fully yet.
I mean those who sleep in christ stay in the mourners love through prayers just as the righteous desceased one is interceding through his love for those back on earth.

This is truly beautiful and its filled with immortal love made possible through Christ our Lord. Christ is the bridge between life and death and through him the two worlds are combined and love is our passion.

Sooo, prayers for dead are Christ's love through the grave and his triumph expressed in faith.

 

[prodromos]

Nothing is set in stone for those who have died until the last judgement. Until then we continue to pray that God will have mercy upon them because of our love for them. We should even pray the same for our enemies who have died.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

There is purification for the dead, we just don’t believe in the Latin ideas of purgatory being a place of fire, brimstone, and punishment. I personally believe Theosis is actually a wonderful experience, nothing like the nightmarish place the Latins portray it as, I never did understand how Roman Catholics believe souls destined for heaven end up in some sort of hellish realm of fire and tortures to be purified in before entering heaven.

Fyi that's an erroneous recap of the doctrine of purgatory.

 

[Barney2.0]

Fyi that's an erroneous recap of the doctrine of purgatory.

Roman Catholics believe we are purified by fire.