Prayers for the dead

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Roman Catholics believe we are purified by fire.

Yes, but not as you described.

 

[Ronald]

My evangelical friends often raise this point when I mention praying for the dead. Specifically that this story shows that there can be no changes in one's final destination after death. Okay, I will play along. The story also indicates that Lazarus is in "heaven" because he suffered, and the rich man is in "hell" because he was not generous. There is nothing in this story that directly points to belief in Christ (or religious faith whatsoever, except to the extend that it influences works) as a prerequisite for entering the kingdom of heaven. So if you wish to use to story to support the evangelical paradigm of salvation, you need to ignore the first half of it.

No, you misinterpret the story. The scripture states that Abraham said, "Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here and you are in agony." This says nothing about Lazarus being in Paradise because he suffered. It says nothing about Lazarus faith or that the Rich man did not have faith. It is a story about these locations, that they exist, one is good and comforting and the other, tormenting. It is not a story of having faith in Christ. Since it was past tense and Jesus was telling the story, it may have been about two people before Christ even started His ministry. It mentions, "If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone (Christ) rises from the dead." .

 

[Ronald]

this is the Orthodox forum so if you could please follow the rules and not post contrary to what we believe.

there is more nuance to the Lazarus story.

Sorry.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Sorry.

no worries, if you wanna debate us you can in St Justin's

 

[TheLostCoin]

Yes, but not as you described.

Is it not "a" Roman Catholic opinion? After all, didn't Thomas Aquinas think that Purgatory was simply a department of Hell?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Is it not "a" Roman Catholic opinion? After all, didn't Thomas Aquinas think that Purgatory was simply a department of Hell?

I have never heard that, since everyone in Purgatory is saved.

 

[TheLostCoin]

I have never heard that, since everyone in Purgatory is saved.

https://taylormarshall.com/2011/07/four-sections-of-hell-st-thomas-aquinas.html

Well, this is where some theologians have found such an interpretation problematic. In fact, the Sigillion of 1583 (which, if I remember, is a forgery, but quotes legitimate portions of the Council of 1583) specifically anathematizes Roman Catholicism because it's a heresy to say hell has an end.

 

[ArmyMatt]

https://taylormarshall.com/2011/07/four-sections-of-hell-st-thomas-aquinas.html

Well, this is where some theologians have found such an interpretation problematic. In fact, the Sigillion of 1583 (which, if I remember, is a forgery, but quotes legitimate portions of the Council of 1583) specifically anathematizes Roman Catholicism because it's a heresy to say hell has an end.

interesting, definitely something to chew on.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

interesting, definitely something to chew on.

It's not. The CCC is not ambiguous at all. It's for those who are saved, but dying without yet being saints.
As im technically still catholic I do have my catechism somewhere, but this being TAW I cant see the relevance of quoting it etc etc...

 

[ArmyMatt]

It's not. The CCC is not ambiguous at all. It's for those who are saved, but dying without yet being saints.
As im technically still catholic I do have my catechism somewhere, but this being TAW I cant see the relevance of quoting it etc etc...

that's what I thought

 

[TheLostCoin]

It's not. The CCC is not ambiguous at all. It's for those who are saved, but dying without yet being saints.
As im technically still catholic I do have my catechism somewhere, but this being TAW I cant see the relevance of quoting it etc etc...

So am I.

I mean, yeah, there are certain ideas of Thomas Aquinas which many Catholics don't hold today - that the Angels help move the planets and Geocentrism. But I thought it was worth bringing up regardless, and it's not without false or malicious influence that the person held such a view.

On the other hand, it can't be without reason that the Orthodox Church in a Council condemned Purgatory for the same logic Thomas Aquinas employed - it must have been held by a significant amount of Catholics around the time of Trent.

Moreover, many Trad Cats will argue that the Catechism cannot be trusted due to the fact that it teaches that the Death Penalty is in of itself sinful, according to the changes under Pope Francis.

 

[buzuxi02]

Orthodoxy equates prayers for the dead with those already saved. All this stuff about praying our family members out of hell is complete nonsense:

GREGORY. You see, then, that the reason is all one, why, in the next life, none shall pray for men condemned for ever to hell fire: that there is now of not praying for the devil and his angels, sentenced to everlasting torments: and this also is the very reason why holy men do not now pray for them that die in their infidelity and known wicked life: for seeing certain it is that they be condemned to endless pains, to what purpose should they pray for them, when they know that no petition will be admitted of God, their just judge?...(St. Gregory Dialogues Ch44, BkIV)

 

[ArmyMatt]

Orthodoxy equates prayers for the dead with those already saved. All this stuff about praying our family members out of hell is complete nonsense:

GREGORY. You see, then, that the reason is all one, why, in the next life, none shall pray for men condemned for ever to hell fire: that there is now of not praying for the devil and his angels, sentenced to everlasting torments: and this also is the very reason why holy men do not now pray for them that die in their infidelity and known wicked life: for seeing certain it is that they be condemned to endless pains, to what purpose should they pray for them, when they know that no petition will be admitted of God, their just judge?...(St. Gregory Dialogues Ch44, BkIV)

then how did St Xenia do it?

 

[TheLostCoin]

Orthodoxy equates prayers for the dead with those already saved. All this stuff about praying our family members out of hell is complete nonsense:

GREGORY. You see, then, that the reason is all one, why, in the next life, none shall pray for men condemned for ever to hell fire: that there is now of not praying for the devil and his angels, sentenced to everlasting torments: and this also is the very reason why holy men do not now pray for them that die in their infidelity and known wicked life: for seeing certain it is that they be condemned to endless pains, to what purpose should they pray for them, when they know that no petition will be admitted of God, their just judge?...(St. Gregory Dialogues Ch44, BkIV)

Saint Gregory tells a story about the greedy Monk Justus, who stole three gold coins, who confessed it on his deathbed, and after he died, Saint Gregory took his corpse and threw it on a dunghill and threw his coins onto the corpse saying "Thy money be with thee unto perdition," (Saint Gregory said he did this to help the monk on his journey in the Afterlife to feel remorseful and to show the monks that such a sin of greed is nowhere near acceptable), and then Saint Gregory ordered that Mass should be offered for 30 days for this Monk Justus, so that he may be delivered from the torments of fire, and afterwards, this monk appeared to Copiosus, his Brother, saying that he was delivered and that he feels well, for after this 30th day he received Communion in Heaven.

That's also not to mention the story of Saint Benedict whose prayers allowed two sinful nuns to be unbound from Hell.

Both of these stories you may find in the Dialogues.

 

[buzuxi02]

then how did St Xenia do it?

Father, when you serve a memorial for a parishioner's loved one is it because they think their loved one is in hell?
Its Latin thinking to believe prayers for the dead are only for those in purgatory or Hades. The majority of laity from all time arent thinking, "hey, my mom needs my help to escape the dungeons of hades, I better submit her name to be read"...
The prayers of the dead help you as much as them and is mostly based on the love bond you share with the deceased. By praying for the dead you help each other. The deceased person your praying for brings a reminder of your own mortality and sins into remembrance to repent of and thus its reciprocal.
The memorial service for a panikhida is explained in the apostolic constitutions:

Let the third day of the departed be celebrated with psalms, and lessons, and prayers, on account of Him who arose within the space of three days; and let the ninth day be celebrated in remembrance of the living, and of the departed; and the fortieth day according to the ancient pattern: for so did the people lament Moses, and the anniversary day in memory of him.2 And let alms be given to the poor out of his goods for a memorial of him.3

All this emphasis on deceased sinners needing our help to rescue their souls from fire or hades is a Latin viewpoint. This grim understanding doesnt take into account all the pious family members we commemorate who successfully were awarded the crown hoping to be counted among them.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Father, when you serve a memorial for a parishioner's loved one is it because they think their loved one is in hell?
Its Latin thinking to believe prayers for the dead are only for those in purgatory or Hades. The majority of laity from all time arent thinking, "hey, my mom needs my help to escape the dungeons of hades, I better submit her name to be read"...
The prayers of the dead help you as much as them and is mostly based on the love bond you share with the deceased. By praying for the dead you help each other. The deceased person your praying for brings a reminder of your own mortality and sins into remembrance to repent of and thus its reciprocal.
The memorial service for a panikhida is explained in the apostolic constitutions:

Let the third day of the departed be celebrated with psalms, and lessons, and prayers, on account of Him who arose within the space of three days; and let the ninth day be celebrated in remembrance of the living, and of the departed; and the fortieth day according to the ancient pattern: for so did the people lament Moses, and the anniversary day in memory of him.2 And let alms be given to the poor out of his goods for a memorial of him.3

All this emphasis on deceased sinners needing our help to rescue their souls from fire or hades is a Latin viewpoint. This grim understanding doesnt take into account all the pious family members we commemorate who successfully were awarded the crown hoping to be counted among them.

well, technically hell doesn't exist yet. but souls can be prayed out of Hades. it doesn't matter what people on earth are thinking. it has happened in our saints' and elders' lives. Elder Joseph the hesychast is another which comes to mind, who prayed and his aunt was liberated from hades.

 

[TheLostCoin]

well, technically hell doesn't exist yet. but souls can be prayed out of Hades. it doesn't matter what people on earth are thinking. it has happened in our saints' and elders' lives. Elder Joseph the hesychast is another which comes to mind, who prayed and his aunt was liberated from hades.

So, Father, this is where I'm a bit confused...what is "Hades" like? I asked my priest and he told me that we can only see the experience after death through a veil and can't really comprehend it in its fullness, but from what I hear souls experience a taste of Eternal Hell.

1. In what way is it like Hell? Where does the torment come from, the demons? Is there fire? Darkness?
2. What did Christ do when He descended into Hades and liberated the souls? Did they move into another place? Is Hades divided into two - Abraham's Bosom and Hades? If they haven't undergone the Glory of the Resurrection, why didn't they end up in Abraham's Bosom in the first place?
3. Where is the Theotokos and Jesus Christ in relation to Abraham's Bosom and Heaven? Are they in Heaven? Are the Saints unable to see Jesus Christ or the Theotokos directly because they aren't in Heaven yet?
4. Toll Houses?

 

[ArmyMatt]

1. the torment comes from sin in the face of God, which is the divine fire of His presence.

2. hades is divided into Abraham's bosom and the pit. the righteous were in Abraham's bosom and they followed Christ to paradise.

3. Christ is everywhere present and filling all things. the saints are in paradise again. the Theotokos is tricky since she is resurrected. so she is living the life after the Judgment.

4. that's a whole nother can of worms.

 

[TheLostCoin]

1. the torment comes from sin in the face of God, which is the divine fire of His presence.

2. hades is divided into Abraham's bosom and the pit. the righteous were in Abraham's bosom and they followed Christ to paradise.

3. Christ is everywhere present and filling all things. the saints are in paradise again. the Theotokos is tricky since she is resurrected. so she is living the life after the Judgment.

4. that's a whole nother can of worms.

If torture in Hades is experiencing God’s Love, then what’s the difference between pre and post Last Judgment? Just the fact we have bodies? And if there’s no difference in this regard, what’s the problem with Purgatory - other than it is created?

Why did Mark of Ephesus have such a problem?

 

[ArmyMatt]

If torture in Hades is experiencing God’s Love, then what’s the difference between pre and post Last Judgment? Just the fact we have bodies? And if there’s no difference in this regard, what’s the problem with Purgatory - other than it is created?

Why did Mark of Ephesus have such a problem?

the fact that we will have bodies means that the torment of hell is worse than hades and the glory of heaven is greater than paradise.