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My reply was:Does prayer work? By "work" I mean "produce the desired (asked for) results".
How do you know?
1 John 5:14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him. Do you believe St. John? Did he know the Word and will of God?
how is that not relevant to the discussion when it directly addresses it?Yes, and because none of the questions seemed relevant.
Found no place in scripture -And we are judged by God's revealed will, not his secret will.
What of this account?God did EXACTLY what He said He would do - nothing hidden - nothing secret -
It is a question from you intending me to interpret a verse from the bible, or to say "amen" to your proposition. But my intention was to ask and read answers rather than to write questions and then answer them or to answer questions raised as part of an answer supplied by someone else. I wanted to see what others say rather than fill the thread with my own thoughts.how is that not relevant to the discussion when it directly addresses it?
Found throughout Scripture -Found no place in scripture -
Ah!. . .and there we have the problem. . .denial of God's word in Dt 29:29.Wonderful! Then we agree - there is no such thing as God's secret will.
well, we are at an impasse - God's richest and best to you - hope you find the secrets.Ah!. . .and there we have the problem. . .denial of God's word in Dt 29:29.
you did not want it to be part of a discussion then - OKIE DOKIEIt is a question from you intending me to interpret a verse from the bible, or to say "amen" to your proposition. But my intention was to ask and read answers rather than to write questions and then answer them or to answer questions raised as part of an answer supplied by someone else. I wanted to see what others say rather than fill the thread with my own thoughts.
God will circumvent man's will when it suits his purposes to do so, but more often, he accomplishes his will through the use of man's will.Then there is this instruction in Scripture:
Psalm 122:6
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem:
“May they prosper who love you.
Should we interpret that we should stop praying, or that it is not God's will for peace? Or do we realize God will not circumvent man's will.
Can you please cite an example from Scripture?God will circumvent man's will when it suits his purposes to do so, but more often, he accomplishes his will through the use of man's will.
Not to go to your premise re Salvation being God's greatest purpose, but why do you think God does not circumvent man's will when it comes to Salvation?Can you please cite an example from Scripture?
The reason I am asking is that I believe Salvation is Gods greatest purposes, it is the reason Jesus died and rose again. Yet God does not circumvent man’s will when it comes to Salvation.
Because He gave man free will - and He will not circumvent it. - God does not act one way and then another - He is the same yesterday today and forever.Not to go to your premise re Salvation being God's greatest purpose, but why do you think God does not circumvent man's will when it comes to Salvation?
Examples from Scripture (Proverbs 16:9 shows both, and, actually, most of these show both)Can you please cite an example from Scripture?
The reason I am asking is that I believe Salvation is Gods greatest purposes, it is the reason Jesus died and rose again. Yet God does not circumvent man’s will when it comes to Salvation.
I’d like to share a miracle I witnessed as a result of an answered prayer. I took my family to a trampoline park one time and was in a huge ball pit with my daughter. This thing was about 15 feet wide and about 30 feet long and 3 feet deep. My daughter began throwing balls at me so I decided to get her back by scooping both my arms deep into the balls and in a scooping motion and hurled about 50 balls at her. In the process my wedding ring flew off my finger and into the ball pit. I didn’t see where it went because there were so many balls flying in the air so I had no idea where to look for it. I immediately panicked and began searching for it. I dove to the bottom and it was completely impossible to see anything on the floor of the ball pit so I had to use my hands by sliding them across the floor to comb the surface and try to feel for it. In the process I found another ring and a cell phone and gave them to the person working there. After about 45 minutes of combing the floor with my hands my arms began to get tired and my family was getting hungry so I decided to take a break and ordered a pizza. We prayed for our food and also prayed that I would find my ring then ate. Afterwards I prayed again asking The Lord to please help me find my ring. When I went back to the ball pit as soon as my hand touched the floor my ring was right dead center of my palm. I mean I didn’t have to slide my hand at all. As soon as it touched the floor my ring was in the middle of my hand. This ball pit was about 15 feet by 30 feet long and about 3 feet deep and I had no idea where my ring could’ve possibly been. The odds of that happening are just inconceivable. I immediately jumped up and shouted PRAISE THE LORD for everyone to hear!! I even explained to the people around me how I had prayed and as soon as my hand touched the floor my ring was in the center of my palm. I just wanted to reveal God’s glory to everyone in appreciation for His blessing or miracle as I see it. So I would say that sometimes prayers to result in receiving what we ask for but not every time because I still haven’t won the lottery yet.Does prayer work? By "work" I mean "produce the desired (asked for) results".
How do you know?
I think these passages are good examples that God does not circumvent man’s will when it comes to salvation.Not to go to your premise re Salvation being God's greatest purpose, but why do you think God does not circumvent man's will when it comes to Salvation?
That is only a claim, a posit; and even though you seem to think that "He is the same yesterday today and forever." means that he doesn't act one way and then another, and even though you think that claim is relevant, you don't show how it is relevant. You are a long way from proving your version of free will and that God will not circumvent it.Because He gave man free will - and He will not circumvent it. - God does not act one way and then another - He is the same yesterday today and forever.
If I understand how you mean to use these verses to prove your thesis, ("that God does not circumvent man’s will when it comes to salvation"), by your last statement, "The scriptures give several examples of God trying to save people who refuse to repent.", you still have a long way to go to support the notions, which in themselves (even if true) also don't well support the support of your thesis. For a quick example, you say "...God trying to save..."; if indeed he is trying to save them, aside from your implication of his disability to do so and of his lack of foresight in seeing that they won't, —as I said, IF indeed he is only trying to save them, how does that show that God does not circumvent man's will when it comes to salvation? After all, you yourself here say they will not repent —so if they will not, why should he circumvent their will in these instances?I think these passages are good examples that God does not circumvent man’s will when it comes to salvation.
”And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’ ”“
Luke 13:6-9 NASB1995
John 15:2 says the same thing.
”“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.“
John 15:1-2 NASB1995
John 5:34 is another example.
”But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.“
John 5:34 NASB1995
In John 5 Jesus is speaking to unbelieving Jews who are seeking to kill Him and He says that He’s trying to save them, He also tells them that He will not be the one to accuse them before The Father but Moses will be their accuser.
Romans 2:4-5 is another example.
”Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,“
Romans 2:4-5 NASB1995
Revelation 2:20-21 is another example
”But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.“
Revelation 2:20-21 NASB1995
The scriptures give several examples of God trying to save people who refuse to repent.
These verses have nothing to do with salvation. And God specifically said why He was going to harden pharaoh’s heart before He did it.Examples from Scripture (Proverbs 16:9 shows both, and, actually, most of these show both)
1) God circumventing man's will: (This is more than obvious every day, for everyone. 'You can't always get what you want.')
"A man’s heart plans his way,But the Lord directs his steps." Proverbs 16:9Isaiah 36:8 - 37:32 Too long to quote here —Sennacherib claims the Lord told him to attack, but then when he attempts to do so, he is thwarted by the Lord."...they...had hired Balaam to call a curse down on them. (Our God, however, turned the curse into a blessing.)" Nehemiah 13:2
2) God using man's will:
"A man’s heart plans his way,But [it is] the Lord direct[ing] his steps." Proverbs 16:9 (paraphrased)Isaiah 36:8 - 37:32 Too long to quote here —Sennacherib claims the Lord told him to attack, but then when he attempts to do so, he is thwarted by the Lord. Now why would God tell him to attack, which he was more than willing to do?"For it was the LORD himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the LORD had commanded Moses." Joshua 11:20
For evidence of the Lord being in control of man's will, read also Daniel 4:24-37, Exodus 9:12 and that whole story, and all through the Old Testament and particularly in the prophets, one king (whose name is not coming to me right now) to whom God speaks directly, is given success against Israel, and then punished for his arrogance, claiming his success was by his own doing.
We are all tools, servants, of God, whether by obedience or disobedience, just as God calls Nebuchadnezzar "my servant" (Jeremiah 27:6), whose will God both manipulated and used.
no offense brother but this sounds like circular reasoning. Your implying that He only circumvents the will of those who will choose to cooperate. Thats not actually a circumvention to salvation if they chose to comply of their own free will. It’s like saying they chose to cooperate so He made them cooperate.If I understand how you mean to use these verses to prove your thesis, ("that God does not circumvent man’s will when it comes to salvation"), by your last statement, "The scriptures give several examples of God trying to save people who refuse to repent.", you still have a long way to go to support the notions, which in themselves (even if true) also don't well support the support of your thesis. For a quick example, you say "...God trying to save..."; if indeed he is trying to save them, aside from your implication of his disability to do so and of his lack of foresight in seeing that they won't, —as I said, IF indeed he is only trying to save them, how does that show that God does not circumvent man's will when it comes to salvation? After all, you yourself here say they will not repent —so if they will not, why should he circumvent their will in these instances?
The only time he does so, concerning salvation, as you know those you oppose say, is to regenerate the elect —not the reprobate.
I can see we're going to be talking past each other again. I'm not up to that.These verses have nothing to do with salvation. And God specifically said why He was going to harden pharaoh’s heart before He did it.
”But I know that the king of Egypt will not permit you to go, except under compulsion. So I will stretch out My hand and strike Egypt with all My miracles which I shall do in the midst of it; and after that he will let you go.“
Exodus 3:19-20 NASB1995
God already knew that Pharaoh wasn’t going to let the Israelites go except under compulsion so He decided to make an example of him.
no offense brother but this sounds like circular reasoning. Your implying that He only circumvents the will of those who will choose to cooperate. Thats not actually a circumvention to salvation if they chose to comply of their own free will. It’s like saying they chose to cooperate so He made them cooperate.
All of the examples I showed were examples of God trying to save reprobates. We can discuss them if you like.
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