Praise to the Man!

[DCP 32° K.T]

It is explicitly stated on page 301 of Watchtower dated December 1881, using the same or similar arguments and same Bible reference (divine nature) used by mormons.... Before you state something with such absolute certainty, you should at least check out the facts first....I do!

Then you must be aware that they do not believe that the divine nature is the nature of God that makes him what he is! You are wrong in your interpretation of what Jehovah's Witnesses currently believe. They apply the divine nature to Jesus and to other Christians as attributes but absolutely, Protestant-like, reject that it is the nature of God. In fact, you should know that they deny that it is the nature of God. Thus, you have misread what the Witnesses currently believe on this matter. Don't believe it? Check out their Aid to Bible Understanding.

By the way, I am arguing from the Orthodox position on the matter. I have said nothing about the Mormon position except to acknowlege that Mormons also believe a form of the teaching of Theosis.

 

[Toms777]

Then you must be aware that they do not believe that the divine nature is the nature of God that makes him what he is! You are wrong in your interpretation of what Jehovah's Witnesses currently believe. They apply the divine nature to Jesus and to other Christians as attributes but absolutely, Protestant-like, reject that it is the nature of God. In fact, you should know that they deny that it is the nature of God. Thus, you have misread what the Witnesses currently believe on this matter. Don't believe it? Check out their Aid to Bible Understanding.

By the way, I am arguing from the Orthodox position on the matter. I have said nothing about the Mormon position except to acknowlege that Mormons also believe a form of the teaching of Theosis.

I have had JWs actually defend the position even in the past year or so, so again, please make sure of your facts. Regardless, JWs are not the topic of this thread. If you want to discuss further, I have given you your options.

(BTW, I presume that you known that the Aid to Bible Understanding has been considered obsolete by JWs for a number of years).

 

[Toms777]

Nope. Not at all. The first part = Kenosis of Christ. This you cannot deny.

If the first part = Kenosis, what must the second part be since it is the positive of the negative in the first part, and that the second part pertains to man?

Answer these questions. You cannot divorce the second part from the meaning of the first. Let go of your false postreformation interpretation of this passage and embrace it for what it says and implies.

Dopn't tell me - show me where this is stated in teh Bible. Otherwise it is your opinion being used to alter the Bible to amke it say what you want it to say to agree with your theological system, the traditions of men.

I have no "postreformational" interpretation. I go straight to the Bible. That is what I am asking you to do.

(BTW, as for postreformational, keep in mind that mormonism did not even exist until after the BoM was written in the 19th century!).

 

[Toms777]

And on the matter of 2 Peter 1:3-4, the logic is rather simple.

Human nature = what makes man man.

Nature of angels = what makes angels angels.

Divine Nature = what makes God what he is.

Being united to God in one spirit, being as God, and sharing the Divine nature makes Christians, who overcome through Christ, into what?

Colossians 2:9 is clear that Christ has all the fulness of the Deity dwelling within him. If we are to be united to God in one spirit, to share the nature of God, and also to be filled with all the fullness of God, what does that make us? Come on, Mr. 777, the teaching of the New Testament as a whole is clear. Why will you be so blind to it?

P.S.: Remember, Mormons are not the only ones who believe in the deification of man through the divinized manhood of the Holy Christ.

The logic is not there. You have to add it in from your theolopgical system. Show me from the Bible, without adding in your theological system to bend what it says. I don't care who else believes it - teachings of men hold no sway for me.

Colossains 2:9 actually argues against you:

Col 2:8-10
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.
NKJV

First, avoid the traditions of men. That is the point taht I have been trying to make with you.

Second, the fullness of God is in Jesus - that is because He is God! We are not.

Third - it says nowhere here that we will ebcome God.

Fourth, Throughout scripture we are told that we are sons by adoption, not by procreation, but by adoption. Adopted sons do not take on the nature of the parents.

Rom 8:15
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."
NKJV

Gal 4:2-5
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
NKJV

Now, please put away your theologiocal; system and show me from the Bible where it says that we can become God or gods.

 

[JVAC]

Here is a Hymn from the Mormon Church Hymnal, written about Joseph Smith. Does anyone have any thoughts or comment about what this hymn says about Joseph Smith?

Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah!
Jesus annointed that Prophet and Seer.
Blessed to open the last dispensation,
Kings shall extol him, and nations revere.

Praise to his memory, he died as a martyr;
Honored and blest be his ever great name!
Long shall his blood, which was shed by assassins,
Stain Illinois* while the earth lauds his fame.

Great is his glory and endless his priesthood.
Ever and ever the keys he will hold.
Faithful and true, he will enter his kingdom,
Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old.

Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven;
Earth must atone for the blood of that man.
Wake up the world for the conflict of justice.
Millions shall know "brother Joseph" again.

Chorus: Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.

Don't the LDSers think that Jesus was the 'god of the old testament' thus, how did Jesus comune with himself?

 

[Toms777]

Don't the LDSers think that Jesus was the 'god of the old testament' thus, how did Jesus comune with himself?

Very good question!!

 

[DCP 32° K.T]

Dopn't tell me - show me where this is stated in teh Bible....

You haven't the faintest clue about the Kenosis, have you? If you don't know where it is in the Bible, you are without knowledge. This is one of the foundational doctrines of Orthodox Christianity! It is upon this foundation that the doctrine of Theosis rests. It is no wonder to me why Theosis is incomprehensible to you. You know nothing of the foundation. Of course, you also do not use the Bible of the Apostles so I also am not surprised on that count.

 

[JVAC]

I am not all up on my termanology, DCP can you explain Kenosis a little more, or translate it or something. I have never heard of Kenosis as stated. i am a little late, and I couldn't find it in the back messages.

 

[Toms777]

You haven't the faintest clue about the Kenosis, have you? If you don't know where it is in the Bible, you are without knowledge. This is one of the foundational doctrines of Orthodox Christianity! It is upon this foundation that the doctrine of Theosis rests. It is no wonder to me why Theosis is incomprehensible to you. You know nothing of the foundation. Of course, you also do not use the Bible of the Apostles so I also am not surprised on that count.

Lay off the ad hominems. I asked you to provide evidence that your interpretation of the Bible is based upon the Bible in context.

You have yet to do so, and your personal attacks suggest to me that you are feeling the heat and are unable to do so, so rather than deal with the issue, you attack the person. that is not appropriate, nmot Christian and contrary to teh rules of the board. And it makes your position appear weak.

now deal with the issue.

 

[DCP 32° K.T]

I am not all up on my termanology, DCP can you explain Kenosis a little more, or translate it or something. I have never heard of Kenosis as stated. i am a little late, and I couldn't find it in the back messages.

Kenosis is the emptying of Christ. Kenosis means the process of emptying or making oneself of lesser stature or nature, as the Logos did in taking upon himself human nature and flesh. It is one of the foundational teachings of the Orthodox faith and one of the teachings upon which Theosis, also a fundamental tenet of the Orthodox faith, is based. The only other place I have seen the term used in English is as jargon used in theological treatises. It is in the Greek H Kainh Diaqhkh or New Covenant.

 

[Toms777]

I am not all up on my termanology, DCP can you explain Kenosis a little more, or translate it or something. I have never heard of Kenosis as stated. i am a little late, and I couldn't find it in the back messages.

It refers to Jesus coming to earth, and though He is God, manifest himself in the flesh (1 Tim 3:16) making himself of no reputation (Phil 2:9) in order to submit himself voluntarily to the authority of God the Father.

The Roman catholic church, Mormons and JWs use variant theologies which attempt to suggest that the process can be reverted to make us gods or God. You have seen what the Mormons teach, JWs teach something similar though they at least do not claim that man can become equal to God, but Roman Catholics teach something virtually identical to the Mormons, and it is found in article 460 of the Roman Catechism:

460 The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature":78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81

Thus, there is an orthodox doctrine of the Kenosis, which is God the Son voluntarily submitting to the Father out of love for mankind that He might die on the cross for our sins. Other non-Christians religiosn try to reverse it, and instead of man humbling himself, they try to exalt themselves to the become gods or God, going beyond what the Bible teaches in an effort ot equate ourselves either to God the Son or God the father.

 

[DCP 32° K.T]

Lay off the ad hominems....

Sorry. No ad hominem argumentation here. Just stating facts. An example of ad hominem argumentation would be if I said that something you said could not be true because you are a heretic or a schismatic. I have not done so. But you have demonstrated lack of knowledge concerning a fundamental tenet of Orthodoxy and I have done nothing but point it out. I also pointed out that you do not use the Bible of the Apostles. You don't. Where is the ad hominem argumentation in that?

There is no heat, and no inability to demonstrate truth. There is only your failure to acknowledge any of it because you wish to hold too doggedly to postreformation theology and its resultant stance, and shy away from implications of divine truth. If you do not use the Bible of the Apostles, how can you possibly understand?

P.S.: Notwithstanding Aid to Bible Understanding is considered dated in parts, the point still stands. Jehovah's Witnesses do NOT hold that the divine nature is the nature of God. BTW, my next-door neighbor is an Elder in that religion and I've got a shelfload of JW books. To them, because they hold that the divine nature is something that grows, it cannot refer to God. They are like Protestants in their rejection of the original understanding of the meaning of the Divine Nature. Why on earth do you think they change the rendering of Colossians 2:9 to divine quality rather than the Deity and redefine 2 Peter 1:4 with footnotes that detract from the scripture's fullest meaning? Again, they do not have a teaching of deification for mankind, your reliance upon an 1881 quotation from before they were called Jehovah's Witnesses notwithstanding.

 

[DCP 32° K.T]

There you go, Mr. 777. You understood part of the doctrine of Kenosis. Can you now see, then, how the first part of 2 Corinthians 8:9 refers to the Kenosis?

 

[Toms777]

Sorry. No ad hominem argumentation here.

Take note - I am not going to argue terminology or definitions, it is not worth it - call it what you will, I do not tolerate abusive comments and personal attacks. Deal with the issue.

I also pointed out that you do not use the Bible of the Apostles. You don't.

Since you do not know me, tell me how you justify that personal attack?

P.S.: Notwithstanding Aid to Bible Understanding is considered dated in parts, the point still stands. Jehovah's Witnesses do NOT hold that the divine nature is the nature of God. BTW, my next-door neighbor is an Elder in that religion and I've got a shelfload of JW books. To them, because they hold that the divine nature is something that grows, it cannot refer to God. They are like Protestants in their rejection of the original understanding of the meaning of the Divine Nature. Why on earth do you think they change the rendering of Colossians 2:9 to divine quality rather than the Deity and redefine 2 Peter 1:4 with footnotes that detract from the scripture's fullest meaning? Again, they do not have a teaching of deification for mankind, your reliance upon an 1881 quotation from before they were called Jehovah's Witnesses notwithstanding.

I do not plan to argue JWs with you here. I told you what you could do should you wish to discuss further. Anyone else who wants documented evidence or wishes to discuss further, the offer is open to them as well.

Please get back on topic and stop the personal attacks!

 

[JVAC]

So is Kenosis sorta like the clause in the Quicunque Vult (athanasian creed) "equal to the Father in divinity, subordinate to the Father in humanity"? Or more? Or less?

 

[Toms777]

There you go, Mr. 777. You understood part of the doctrine of Kenosis. Can you now see, then, how the first part of 2 Corinthians 8:9 refers to the Kenosis?

Perhaps you should have gotten your facts straight before falsely accusing me of not knowing what I was talking about - apologies accepted anytime. I hope that you will now see the problems of making statemenst without knowing the facts.

2 Cor 8:8-10
8 I speak not by commandment, but I am testing the sincerity of your love by the diligence of others. 9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich.
NKJV

It does not saya word about men becoming God or gods. As was shown on here earlier, it is necessary to alter the words to make it say that.

Consider this verse and think again about what you are saying.

Eph 2:4-7
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
NKJV

Verses cannot be forced to say something by taking them out of context and changing the words to what we would like them to say to fit our theological systems.

 

[DCP 32° K.T]

...going beyond what the Bible teaches in an effort ot equate ourselves either to God the Son or God the father.

Yet, the Bible plainly teaches us that we will be co-heirs with Christ of all things and that He is the first of many brothers, brothers who will come to be brothers in truth when they are united to God as one spirit and have become ones having been transformed into the same image and glory as God's Son and have become adopted sons themselves with incomparible glory, the adoption occurring at the redemption of the body but the process beginning now with our acceptance of the Holy Christ. But, God still retains primacy over his creation and never will anyone who is deified through the communication of the divine grace of Christ ever become fully equals to God.

 

[DCP 32° K.T]

...Since you do not know me, tell me how you justify that personal attack?...

Are you really Serapha, who thinks everything is a personal attack? If you do not use the version of the Seventy, you do not use the Bible of the Apostles. It is that simple. I know that you do not use the version of the Seventy because if you did you would not have as much trouble understanding Theosis and Kenosis as you do.

 

[DCP 32° K.T]

Just deal with the issue and answer the question. Does the first part of 2 Corinthians 8:9 speak of the Kenosis. Yes or no? Why or why not?

 

[Toms777]

Are you really Serapha, who thinks everything is a personal attack? If you do not use the version of the Seventy, you do not use the Bible of the Apostles. It is that simple. I know that you do not use the version of the Seventy because if you did you would not have as much trouble understanding Theosis and Kenosis as you do.

Again, stop the personal attacks against either myself or anyone else. Stay on the topic.

I use the true Bible of 66 books. I do not use any additions of men to the Bible.