Praise to the Man!

[happyinhisgrace]

Progression: continuous creation, continuous increase

if He'd reached His full potential why would He create the earth and those that are in it? for His entertainment? i have a hard time trivializing His work in that way.

Well, the Bible says that God created all things for his glory.

God Bless-
Grace

 

[Toms777]

wow, i am impressed how strong this thread continues!

tom777, emerald dragon is well aware of the belief in eternal progression. his point is that we will never grow beyond the power of God. even as we progress, he continues to progress, continues to be our Heavenly Father, continues to be the God we worship and from whom we learn.

Your statement does not take away from the possibility of equality with God. Furthner, as Lorenzo Snow and Joseph Smith and other pointed out, God was once a man who became a God, so presumably if that is held to be true, God once had to worship another God, and thus if God said the same as you, then there must be another God yet greater than the God which the Mormons claim to worship. Why would you worship only a lesser god?

Second question - how many gods do you worship?

Third, where is the Bible does it endorse the doctrine that man can become a god?

 

[arizona_sunshine]

Well, the Bible says that God created all things for his glory.

for His glory = for His entertainment

not exactly the same thing

 

[Phoenix]

I think an interesting question is - If God has a body of flesh and bones could he have created Himself or would he have to have been created ?

 

[arizona_sunshine]

Your statement does not take away from the possibility of equality with God. Furthner, as Lorenzo Snow and Joseph Smith and other pointed out, God was once a man who became a God, so presumably if that is held to be true, God once had to worship another God, and thus if God said the same as you, then there must be another God yet greater than the God which the Mormons claim to worship. Why would you worship only a lesser god?


This can be deduced, yes. It, however, remains speculative because it has not been canonized. It is not important to our salvation.

The point remains: we're never going to "catch up." He'll always be ahead of us---worthy of our worship.

As far as Him being a lesser God... you have a grandfather. Does that make your father any less to you? Does that mean your grandfather is really responsible for your birth, and more worthy of your affections than your father? Then again, I mean... you have a great grandfather...

We have our Heavenly Father. He has revealed to us that we should worship Him, give our honor to Him, and come to know Him thru His only Begotten.

Second question - how many gods do you worship?

One Godhead: God the Father, Christ His son and the Holy Ghost.

Worship is completely different from "accept the possibility of existance."

Third, where is the Bible does it endorse the doctrine that man can become a god?

The LDS church does not hold its beliefs to the Bible only. We hold our beliefs accountable to revelation from God. In our beliefs, more has been revealed to the children of men than the Bible alone.

 

[happyinhisgrace]

One Godhead: God the Father, Christ His son and the Holy Ghost.

Actually, in lds belief...these are 3 different gods and god the father is the one that is worshipped. worship of God through Jesus christ but the lds church does not teach worship of all three, only of God the father so to say that the lds church worships all 3 is incorrect. The mainstream christian community worships all three because we believe they are one God, not just one in purpose but actually one God. This is different from the lds form of worship...I think it is sometimes hard to explain things from either side because while LDS and Christians often use the same terminology, the meanings behind it is very different within the 2 groups.

God Bless-
Grace

 

[happyinhisgrace]

As far as Him being a lesser God... you have a grandfather. Does that make your father any less to you? Does that mean your grandfather is really responsible for your birth, and more worthy of your affections than your father? Then again, I mean... you have a great grandfather...

I think this passage is a good responce to what you said above....

Romans 1:22.... Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man....

God Bless-
Grace

 

[arizona_sunshine]

As far as Him being a lesser God... you have a grandfather. Does that make your father any less to you? Does that mean your grandfather is really responsible for your birth, and more worthy of your affections than your father? Then again, I mean... you have a great grandfather...

I think this passage is a good responce to what you said above....

Romans 1:22.... Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man....

This was in regards to a relationship, not the characteristics of God.

We believe in a Heavenly Family.

 

[arizona_sunshine]

One Godhead: God the Father, Christ His son and the Holy Ghost.

Actually, in lds belief...these are 3 different gods and god the father is the one that is worshipped. worship of God through Jesus christ but the lds church does not teach worship of all three, only of God the father so to say that the lds church worships all 3 is incorrect.

You are absolutely correct on this point, thank you.

We worship the Father.

Our advocate with the Father is Christ, and all His glory He gives to the Father.

The Holy Spirit bears testimony of this, and is not a recipient of worship. Only great appreciation for his efforts.

 

[MormonFriend]

One Godhead: God the Father, Christ His son and the Holy Ghost.

Actually, in lds belief...these are 3 different gods and god the father is the one that is worshipped. worship of God through Jesus christ but the lds church does not teach worship of all three, only of God the father so to say that the lds church worships all 3 is incorrect. The mainstream christian community worships all three because we believe they are one God, not just one in purpose but actually one God. This is different from the lds form of worship...I think it is sometimes hard to explain things from either side because while LDS and Christians often use the same terminology, the meanings behind it is very different within the 2 groups.

God Bless-
Grace

Interpret these how you may.

8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. (1 Corinthians3:8)

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. (John17:11)

 

[Toms777]

Your statement does not take away from the possibility of equality with God. Furthner, as Lorenzo Snow and Joseph Smith and other pointed out, God was once a man who became a God, so presumably if that is held to be true, God once had to worship another God, and thus if God said the same as you, then there must be another God yet greater than the God which the Mormons claim to worship. Why would you worship only a lesser god?


This can be deduced, yes. It, however, remains speculative because it has not been canonized. It is not important to our salvation.

It was stated by Joseph Smith to be "gospel doctrine". Did Joseph Smith not know what the gospel was? If he did not know what the Mormon gospel is, who does? I don't think that you can so easily suggest that it is not canonical. It is in harmony with D&C 132.

The point remains: we're never going to "catch up." He'll always be ahead of us---worthy of our worship.

If God supposedly "caught" up, then what makes you different? Another Mormon on here told me that the only difference between Adam and God was knowledge, so learn a lot and you become God, according to that Mormon. And that is in concert with the Lorenzo Snow doctrine.

As far as Him being a lesser God... you have a grandfather. Does that make your father any less to you? Does that mean your grandfather is really responsible for your birth, and more worthy of your affections than your father? Then again, I mean... you have a great grandfather...

A difference...I am not God nor was my father or grandfather.

So, was God's father equal to Him, in your view? or less than Him, or Greater than Him?

Second question - how many gods do you worship?

One Godhead: God the Father, Christ His son and the Holy Ghost.

I did not ask that...I ask how many gods that you worship. Please answer the question.

Third, where is the Bible does it endorse the doctrine that man can become a god?

The LDS church does not hold its beliefs to the Bible only. We hold our beliefs accountable to revelation from God. In our beliefs, more has been revealed to the children of men than the Bible alone.

So do you therefore agree that there is nothing in the Bible which endorses the doctrine that men can become gods?

 

[MormonFriend]

Your statement does not take away from the possibility of equality with God. Furthner, as Lorenzo Snow and Joseph Smith and other pointed out, God was once a man who became a God, so presumably if that is held to be true, God once had to worship another God, and thus if God said the same as you, then there must be another God yet greater than the God which the Mormons claim to worship. Why would you worship only a lesser god?

Second question - how many gods do you worship?

Third, where is the Bible does it endorse the doctrine that man can become a god?

Tom, I sit here in amazement contemplating the real reason you keep driving at this point. Since our concept of God is very different than yours, you obviously believe that our God does not exist! Surly our doctrine is not suggesting that we can become as the God that you invision or know. So what in the world can you prove by arguing that we cannot become as something that you believe does not exist? What is your real purpose?

 

[Toms777]

Tom, I sit here in amazement contemplating the real reason you keep driving at this point. Since our concept of God is very different than yours, you obviously believe that our God does not exist! Surly our doctrine is not suggesting that we can become as the God that you invision or know. So what in the world can you prove by arguing that we cannot become as something that you believe does not exist? What is your real purpose?

I believe that your god does exist, but not as God or as a god. We do see in the Bible that there was one who sought to be as God and who promised that men could also be as god.

Isa 14:12-15
12 "How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
'I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.'
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.
NKJV

Joseph Smith said that the doctrine that man could become as God was "gospel doctrine". Did he not understand the gospel?

My real purpose is the truth, and the hope that we can get into the Bible and seek to see what God says through the Bible on these matters.

 

[MormonFriend]

So do you therefore agree that there is nothing in the Bible which endorses the doctrine that men can become gods?

Absolutely not! Somewhere a few days ago I illustrated. I'll summarize.

1. We were created in His Image.
2. We were created in His Likeness.
3. We became as God, knowing good and evil.
4. God is perfect. He commanded us to become perfect.
5. I am His son, what does that make me?
6. Immortality is provided through Jesus Christ.
7. Knowledge of the mysteries of Godliness are given to men who are worthy to receive that revelation.
8. God gives men the right to use His power by way of His Priesthood. Peter walked on water until his faith faltered. The apostles healed and raised the dead. etc.
9. God has shared His power with us to create life, and has given us agency to choose not to take life. (Is there any wonder why these two sins of misusing these powers are numbers 1 & 2 on His list of the worst sins. (Apart from denying the Holy Ghost)

 

[happyinhisgrace]

Interpret these how you may.

Mormon Friend...well to find the meaning in them, one must first read in context which mean not just one verse of proof texting but rather the verse right before and after it so lets see what exactly IS the message of this first verse...

1 Corinthians 3:1-15 (8 being the one you pointed out)

3And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ.
2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able;
3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?
4 For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not carnal?
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one?
6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.
8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, you are God's building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Ok, so clearly this passage of scripture is referring to people putting building their "works" on wordly things rather than on the foundation of Christ and it does not matter what "minister" or "devision" of the church you subcribe to, what matters is what your foundation for your works is. Verse 8 read in conjunction with the previous verses and the following verses clearly points out that it does not matter if you are planting seeds in Christ or watering them...are all one in the service they are doing for Jesus in spreading his word.

The verse you pointed out has nothing to do with God and the father being one in "purpose" but rather speaks of believers of God being one in the purpose of spreading the good news of Christ. Those chapters don't even take any "interpertation" they are very self-explanitory.

Now, on to the next verse you posted will be in a following post

God Bless-
Grace

 

[Toms777]

Absolutely not! Somewhere a few days ago I illustrated. I'll summarize.

1. We were created in His Image.
2. We were created in His Likeness.
3. We became as God, knowing good and evil.
4. God is perfect. He commanded us to become perfect.
5. I am His son, what does that make me?
6. Immortality is provided through Jesus Christ.
7. Knowledge of the mysteries of Godliness are given to men who are worthy to receive that revelation.
8. God gives men the right to use His power by way of His Priesthood. Peter walked on water until his faith faltered. The apostles healed and raised the dead. etc.
9. God has shared His power with us to create life, and has given us agency to choose not to take life. (Is there any wonder why these two sins of misusing these powers are numbers 1 & 2 on His list of the worst sins. (Apart from denying the Holy Ghost)

Actually none of the things that you mentioned say anything about becoming gods, even though a few are NOT in the Bible. For example:

#3 - Satan said that man could become like God - that was the lie in the gardne. God said that that Adam and Eve only gained knowledge of good and evil when they feel. Prior to that, no evil was in the world, therefore they did not have knwoledge of evil, so gaining that knowledge was declared a sin by God for our own protection. Man violated that and fell, he did not become like God.

#5 - Those who receive Jesus Christ as saviour are adopted sons.

#7 - No one is worthy except Jesus himself.

Rev 5:4-5
4 So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it. 5 But one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals."
NKJV

#8 - show me this in the Bible. Please note that when Jesus died on the cross, the veil was rent showing that the priesthodo was no longer required to mediate between men and God, but rather the priesthood was prophetic of Jesus, who the Bible says is the only High priest and all who are true belivers are a priesthood of believers. Nowhere is authority delegated to a select group of priests. Also, there is now one Apostle according to the Bible.

#9 - where does the Bible say that we have power ot create life? Mormonism has taught that even God cannot do that.

 

[fatboys]

Mormon Friend...well to find the meaning in them, one must first read in context which mean not just one verse of proof texting but rather the verse right before and after it so lets see what exactly IS the message of this first verse...

1 Corinthians 3:1-15 (8 being the one you pointed out)

3And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ.
2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able;
3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?

FB: Paul teaches that not all the truth can be taught to members of the church because they would not be able to digest it. Thus the reference to being fed milk first. This is, of course why LDS missionaries teach investigators the basics of the gospel. People who are sincere, ask the source of all truth to confirm what they are being taught, and this begins the growth of a testimony.

4 For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not carnal?
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one?
6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.
8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

FB: This means to me that those who work to build Gods kingdom will have rewards according to their efforts. Sort of does away with any claim that faith alone without works is a misunderstanding.

9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, you are God's building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

FB: This is pretty clear to me that those who work for the wrong things will be burned, but those who "WORK" for God, will have a foundation that will endure.

Ok, so clearly this passage of scripture is referring to people putting building their "works" on wordly things rather than on the foundation of Christ and it does not matter what "minister" or "devision" of the church you subcribe to, what matters is what your foundation for your works is. Verse 8 read in conjunction with the previous verses and the following verses clearly points out that it does not matter if you are planting seeds in Christ or watering them...are all one in the service they are doing for Jesus in spreading his word.

The verse you pointed out has nothing to do with God and the father being one in "purpose" but rather speaks of believers of God being one in the purpose of spreading the good news of Christ. Those chapters don't even take any "interpertation" they are very self-explanitory.

Now, on to the next verse you posted will be in a following post

God Bless-
Grace

FB: Reading the whole thing in context, it seems to mean what MF interpreted it correctly.

 

[fatboys]

Genesis 3:22
22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

FB: Tom, you say that Satan lied to Adam and Eve about becoming as god, yet the Lord God said after they had partaken of the fruit, that they had become like them. Did God lie also?

 

[happyinhisgrace]

14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

FB: This is pretty clear to me that those who work for the wrong things will be burned, but those who "WORK" for God, will have a foundation that will endure.

Grace: That isn't what it says, it says that if your earthly work to spread God's messege endures, you will have eartly reward but if your work is burned, you many not have eartly reward but are still saved. The whole passages I posted are talking about they are one in spreading the word of the Lord while on this earth. It also clearly says that those who don't have reward in this are still saved so your argument about the works and salvation being both a requirement are not valid.

14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

 

[happyinhisgrace]

Thus the reference to being fed milk first. This is, of course why LDS missionaries teach investigators the basics of the gospel.

Actually, missionaries don't teach the truth to investigators because if they did, no one would join except maybe a few small numbers. The way in which the missionaries go about their "converting" is in my opinion very deceptive. I think this is why so many people quit going to the lds church not long after being baptised into the church. When they start to learn what the church teaches, they realized it is not what it was protrayed to be. oh, this would be a good subject for a new thread...lol

God Bless-
Grace