Practicing the gifts...

[NBB]

According to Jesus the Father pours the Holy Spirit on those who ask, not those who live a good christian life.

Yes i agree, but i don't think being filled and receiving gifts is the same.
Also to keep the holy spirit without saddening him and quenching him, you need to 'live a good christian life' anyway. I don't mean anything sort of too 'perfect' but at least leave gross sins behind and stay in contact with God, at least thats my opinion.

 

[Sunshinee777]

I invite comment on the modern trend in teaching about the gifts, to encourage folks to practice the gifts on one another.

This even extends to deliverance, sometimes with disastrous results.

To support what I am saying I refer you to the following event that occurred.

About 36 years ago I was engaged to my Wife Sandi and we attended church one evening together. At the end of the service I got a call from a friend - he sounded excited and invited us to share in fellowship with him and a few friends at his home. immediately I felt uneasy for a reason I did not understand. So I mentioned to one of the elders that I was going into a situation that may be problematic and could he pray...

As we drove towards the house I heard the words repeatedly in my mind 'controlling spirit'.
Then I had a clear 'word of knowledge' and said to Sandi - "if we arrive at the house and someone says "I'm so glad you came... I would really love to pray for you" you will know by this, that the fellowship in the house is under the control of a controlling spirit.

Sure enough we parked the car and we could hear the worship and praise going on inside. So we knocked on the door, the door opened the greeting was "I'm so glad you came... I would really love to pray for you" By this we knew what was going on - there were brothers and sisters worshiping and falling down - they had 'discerned' that the baby's crib was spiritually unclean and has burned it - all manner of 'ministry' was happening.

So I watched what was happening for a while until the lady who opened the door wanted to 'lay hands' on me. So I gently declined and decided it was time to let the host of the house know what was going on.

I had lent him the book called 'War on the Saints' by Roberts and Penn-Lewis in which they looked back on the Welsh Revival and recorded the ways in which false spirits tried to infiltrate God's work. In the book they mentioned there was a young lady who was a false prophet but no one knew at the time.

So I said to the host - "remember in the book the young lady who was prophetic? I am giving you a choice - come out to the car now and pray with us off the property or I will leave."

So the host came out and sat in the car with us and I said to him that everything happening in there is under the control of a false controlling spirit... To my astonishment the Holy Spirit came upon him and he broke down into weeping repentance.

He was distraught and asked me what shall we do?

Well the Spirit was showing me how to unravel the situation by dealing with the authority structure so I said that he must ask his wife to come out to the car. His wife came out and I said exactly the same words about the controlling spirit. Amazingly she also was strongly touched by the Holy Spirit and was reduced to repentant weeping. What shall we do they asked again and the Lord showed me we needed to ask the husband of the woman who greeted us at the door to come out also.

Well exactly the same result - as I explained the problem - deep weeping repentance.

At this point the next step was to deal with the problem direct and pray for the mans wife. I remember thinking whether or not I should do this but the Lord indicated that the Host and the Husband should simply ask her permission to be prayed for. So they went back inside and prayed and the whole atmosphere changed immediately and peace and order was restored.

Subsequently we learned that the lady had just attended a meeting run by a well known Christian Celebrity in which the attendees were asked to practice deliverance on each-other.

I was very disturbed about this and I am sorry to say it took me two years to have the courage to inform His eldership about what had happened.

Bear in mind I am an unknown entity with no standing in Christian circles.

Thanks for you patience in reading about this. What we know is that He sees all, and cares deeply about our lives. He gives us insight and the gifts to deal with the infiltrations that occur within our fellowship.

I love it when the Lord is warning me. It makes me feel protected and always strengthens my faith. And I can be sure I have good relationship with Him. He truly is good Father.

 

[chad kincham]

.

 

[1watchman]

Thinking of the "gifts" as shown in 1 Corinthians 12, we can see that some are as "pastors" (shepherds); some are "teachers" (those who know the Scriptures well and can draw attention to the truth therein by God); some are "evangelists" (exercised to preach salvation everywhere they go; etc). There are also gifts of many kinds in our Christian walk to minister the truth of God as shown. The "born again" saints (as John 3:16) are ALL a "holy" and "royal" priesthood to preach and witness to and for God --meditate on 1 Peter 2:5; 9. See also 1 Jn. 5:10-15.

 

[topher694]

Thinking of the "gifts" as shown in 1 Corinthians 12, we can see that some are as "pastors" (shepherds); some are "teachers" (those who know the Scriptures well and can draw attention to the truth therein by God); some are "evangelists" (exercised to preach salvation everywhere they go; etc). There are also gifts of many kinds in our Christian walk to minister the truth of God as shown. The "born again" saints (as John 3:16) are ALL a "holy" and "royal" priesthood to preach and witness to and for God --meditate on 1 Peter 2:5; 9. See also 1 Jn. 5:10-15.

Huh?

 

[TheWhat?]

I think it depends. I don't know about deliberately practicing the gifts in and of themselves.

I've never had a moment where I decided I was going to go and prophesy, or heal someone, or speak in tongues.

I have had moments where I've felt that, as you say, God showed up and things started happening. These have been learning experiences for me as well, although it's taken me quite a lot of time to draw much of anything useful out of them.

That said, I do think people need to practice the gifts, the caveat being that we're not instructed to practice them directly. If we followed the simple, basic instructions we're given, I'm inclined to believe gifts would come to us, as needed.

 

[Francis Drake]

I think it depends. I don't know about deliberately practicing the gifts in and of themselves.

I've never had a moment where I decided I was going to go and prophesy, or heal someone, or speak in tongues.

That's not what scripture tells us.
1Cor14v31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32 The spirits of prophets are subject to prophets.
ie. moving in the Spirit is down to us and our free choices.

1Cor14v1Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.
We are exhorted to pursue love and pursue after the gifts, proving again our free choice. (Most can't be bothered)

5I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied;
If Paul wishes we all spoke in tongues and prophesied, that again indicates we have choice in the matter.

That said, I do think people need to practice the gifts, the caveat being that we're not instructed to practice them directly.

Not instructed to practice the gifts directly? Where did you get that notion from, certainly not the bible.
The only way to practice the gifts is to do so directly.

 

[Carl Emerson]

This is the nub of the issue and why I raised it.

I went to a church and had a prophesy for the Pastor who wept as I spoke it to Him.

Next week he lined up a dozen people for me to prophesy over...

It was a circus - as if I could make the Holy Spirit move !!!

I have grave doubts about those who think they can turn gifts on at will.

 

[Sunshinee777]

I think indwelled are filled are two different things...

Jesus was indwelled before He was filled.

Can normal people have indwelling Holy Spirit? Or just in Jesus?

 

[Sunshinee777]

This is the nub of the issue and why I raised it.

I went to a church and had a prophesy for the Pastor who wept as I spoke it to Him.

Next week he lined up a dozen people for me to prophesy over...

It was a circus - as if I could make the Holy Spirit move !!!

I have grave doubts about those who think they can turn gifts on at will.

I personally think it depends what kind of gift we are talking about. I can use discernment and gift of tongues whenever I want. But gift of prophesy comes to me when I least expect of it. It’s like God is giving me just very little pieces of information or picture of what is going to happen im sure im not mature enough and confident enough yet in it.

 

[GTW27]

This is the nub of the issue and why I raised it.

I went to a church and had a prophesy for the Pastor who wept as I spoke it to Him.

Next week he lined up a dozen people for me to prophesy over...

It was a circus - as if I could make the Holy Spirit move !!!

I have grave doubts about those who think they can turn gifts on at will.

When in The Spirit The words and the gifts flow like a river, but only as He wills. But tongues are there even in the flesh, and can be spoken at anytime. Sometimes words can come, and be held until the perfect time. And other times you can know and not be permitted to speak. All Glory Honor and Power belong to The Lord, as He is the only One worthy of praise.

 

[TheWhat?]

That's not what scripture tells us.
1Cor14v31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32 The spirits of prophets are subject to prophets.
ie. moving in the Spirit is down to us and our free choices.

• According to the OT, there exist lying and unclean spirits responsible for false prophecies (1 Ki 22:23, Zec 13:2).
  
• A prophet can speak presumptuously (Deu 18:22).
• As Samuel grew, his words were fulfilled, but not by his will (1 Sam 3:19).
• Prophecy never came by the will of man, but by the will of God through men moved by the Spirit (2 Pe 1:21).

[1Pe 4:10-11 NKJV] 10 As each one has received a gift, minister it to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11 If anyone speaks, [let him speak] as the oracles of God. If anyone ministers, [let him do it] as with the ability which God supplies, that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

I once met someone who seemed to have taken this word "oracle" a little too seriously. He was paraded around in a church as being one with the gift of prophecy, and maybe he did have the gift, but he was speaking according to visions he was supposedly seeing in his mind's eye. I've had visions. They were deceptive, and while I do not practice deliverance ministry, of necessity I had to learn to exorcise myself of these influences.

"Oracles" is "logion" or "utterances," and God is not an oracle. It's my position that prophecy is chiefly a matter of authority, wisdom and a product of being united with God.

You have a point that we have some free will to "move about" in the Spirit. I interpret this to be, essentially, following Christ, for which we're given instructions that aren't terribly hidden or complicated. All of the gifts proceed from God, and it's my position that we need to be following along, closely united to Him and His will, if we're to experience anything legitimate. I'm willing to grant that at some point a person may be so experienced so as to have the ability to proclaim what God is or isn't going to do, but it's obviously exceedingly rare.

1Cor14v1Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

We are exhorted to pursue love and pursue after the gifts, proving again our free choice. (Most can't be bothered)

5I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied;
If Paul wishes we all spoke in tongues and prophesied, that again indicates we have choice in the matter.

Not instructed to practice the gifts directly? Where did you get that notion from, certainly not the bible.
The only way to practice the gifts is to do so directly.

What's the point of having some spiritual ability if it's of man and not from God? There are many talented people who feel no need to claim their ability is a spiritual gift.

 

[topher694]

When in The Spirit The words and the gifts flow like a river, but only as He wills. But tongues are there even in the flesh, and can be spoken at anytime. Sometimes words can come, and be held until the perfect time. And other times you can know and not be permitted to speak. All Glory Honor and Power belong to The Lord, as He is the only One worthy of praise.

The trick that many miss is, the Spirit is willing far more often than people give Him credit for.

 

[topher694]

• According to the OT, there exist lying and unclean spirits responsible for false prophecies (1 Ki 22:23, Zec 13:2).
  
• A prophet can speak presumptuously (Deu 18:22).
• As Samuel grew, his words were fulfilled, but not by his will (1 Sam 3:19).
• Prophecy never came by the will of man, but by the will of God through men moved by the Spirit (2 Pe 1:21).

[1Pe 4:10-11 NKJV] 10 As each one has received a gift, minister it to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11 If anyone speaks, [let him speak] as the oracles of God. If anyone ministers, [let him do it] as with the ability which God supplies, that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

I once met someone who seemed to have taken this word "oracle" a little too seriously. He was paraded around in a church as being one with the gift of prophecy, and maybe he did have the gift, but he was speaking according to visions he was supposedly seeing in his mind's eye. I've had visions. They were deceptive, and while I do not practice deliverance ministry, of necessity I had to learn to exorcise myself of these influences.

"Oracles" is "logion" or "utterances," and God is not an oracle. It's my position that prophecy is chiefly a matter of authority, wisdom and a product of being united with God.

You have a point that we have some free will to "move about" in the Spirit. I interpret this to be, essentially, following Christ, for which we're given instructions that aren't terribly hidden or complicated. All of the gifts proceed from God, and it's my position that we need to be following along, closely united to Him and His will, if we're to experience anything legitimate. I'm willing to grant that at some point a person may be so experienced so as to have the ability to proclaim what God is or isn't going to do, but it's obviously exceedingly rare.



What's the point of having some spiritual ability if it's of man and not from God? There are many talented people who feel no need to claim their ability is a spiritual gift.

So, have you ever flowed in the gift of prophecy yourself?

 

[Carl Emerson]

What happened to Jesus only doing what He could see the Father doing ???

Are we greater than Jesus ???

In the operation of the gifts we should first teach and learn about seeing and hearing the Father.

Classic case, I visited a brother who was very sick in bed. Several folks came and prayed real good sounding prayers... The man remained very unwell.

I felt burdened and every time I felt I might be able to pray a dog whined under the bed. So I said - get that dog out of here...

Then I 'saw' God lifting the sickness off the man.

So I simply declared what I had seen - "be healed in Jesus name."

The guy got out of bed well.

Faith comes from hearing (in this case seeing) the Word of Christ.

I always wait for Him...

Jesus did not minister from His own will.

 

[topher694]

In the operation of the gifts we should first teach and learn about seeing and hearing the father.

This

 

[TheWhat?]

So, have you ever flowed in the gift of prophecy yourself?

Can't say that I have. What do you mean by flowing?

 

[Carl Emerson]

I think 'Megachurches' need action to get the show going...

This seems to be why folks are being taught to exercise the gifts at will.

It reminds me of the 400 prophets in 2 Chron 18

Actually this chapter should be required reading.

 

[TheWhat?]

What happened to Jesus only doing what He could see the Father doing ???

Are we greater than Jesus ???

In the operation of the gifts we should first teach and learn about seeing and hearing the Father.

This is fairly close to my belief which landed me in the conclusion that the early Christian faith is the faith of the prophets, revealed, and that Jesus is our means, our guide, our way to right relationship with the Father, through Himself.

It is unfortunate, though, that a common knee-jerk reaction to this is that, preaching the gospel with a no-holds-barred attitude regarding what the text literally says, is to dishonor Christ or make Him less than God, the object of all worship. Well, I'm sorry, not only is that a false claim about a straight forward reading of canonical texts, but the gospels were written with intent to bring us back to right relationship with God and frankly, are written with more wisdom than those reactions proceed from.

 

[TheWhat?]

Not a single person is worthy of the Father's favor of their own resources, besides the only begotten Son, who is a propitiation for our sins, in and through Him, the head of the body of Christ.