Practicing the gifts...

[Carl Emerson]

I invite comment on the modern trend in teaching about the gifts, to encourage folks to practice the gifts on one another.

This even extends to deliverance, sometimes with disastrous results.

To support what I am saying I refer you to the following event that occurred.

About 36 years ago I was engaged to my Wife Sandi and we attended church one evening together. At the end of the service I got a call from a friend - he sounded excited and invited us to share in fellowship with him and a few friends at his home. immediately I felt uneasy for a reason I did not understand. So I mentioned to one of the elders that I was going into a situation that may be problematic and could he pray...

As we drove towards the house I heard the words repeatedly in my mind 'controlling spirit'.
Then I had a clear 'word of knowledge' and said to Sandi - "if we arrive at the house and someone says "I'm so glad you came... I would really love to pray for you" you will know by this, that the fellowship in the house is under the control of a controlling spirit.

Sure enough we parked the car and we could hear the worship and praise going on inside. So we knocked on the door, the door opened the greeting was "I'm so glad you came... I would really love to pray for you" By this we knew what was going on - there were brothers and sisters worshiping and falling down - they had 'discerned' that the baby's crib was spiritually unclean and has burned it - all manner of 'ministry' was happening.

So I watched what was happening for a while until the lady who opened the door wanted to 'lay hands' on me. So I gently declined and decided it was time to let the host of the house know what was going on.

I had lent him the book called 'War on the Saints' by Roberts and Penn-Lewis in which they looked back on the Welsh Revival and recorded the ways in which false spirits tried to infiltrate God's work. In the book they mentioned there was a young lady who was a false prophet but no one knew at the time.

So I said to the host - "remember in the book the young lady who was prophetic? I am giving you a choice - come out to the car now and pray with us off the property or I will leave."

So the host came out and sat in the car with us and I said to him that everything happening in there is under the control of a false controlling spirit... To my astonishment the Holy Spirit came upon him and he broke down into weeping repentance.

He was distraught and asked me what shall we do?

Well the Spirit was showing me how to unravel the situation by dealing with the authority structure so I said that he must ask his wife to come out to the car. His wife came out and I said exactly the same words about the controlling spirit. Amazingly she also was strongly touched by the Holy Spirit and was reduced to repentant weeping. What shall we do they asked again and the Lord showed me we needed to ask the husband of the woman who greeted us at the door to come out also.

Well exactly the same result - as I explained the problem - deep weeping repentance.

At this point the next step was to deal with the problem direct and pray for the mans wife. I remember thinking whether or not I should do this but the Lord indicated that the Host and the Husband should simply ask her permission to be prayed for. So they went back inside and prayed and the whole atmosphere changed immediately and peace and order was restored.

Subsequently we learned that the lady had just attended a meeting run by a well known Christian Celebrity in which the attendees were asked to practice deliverance on each-other.

I was very disturbed about this and I am sorry to say it took me two years to have the courage to inform His eldership about what had happened.

Bear in mind I am an unknown entity with no standing in Christian circles.

Thanks for you patience in reading about this. What we know is that He sees all, and cares deeply about our lives. He gives us insight and the gifts to deal with the infiltrations that occur within our fellowship.

 

[Bobber]

I invite comment on the modern trend in teaching about the gifts, to encourage folks to practice the gifts on one another.

Of course people don't own the gifts....they come upon people as the Spirit wills. I suppose their statement would probably be yes but one needs to step out by faith in releasing what God does give.

they had 'discerned' that the baby's crib was spiritually unclean and has burned it - all manner of 'ministry' was happening.

Not sure what you mean, "and has burned it"? Are you saying they took the crib outside and destroyed it?

What shall we do they asked again and the Lord showed me we needed to ask the husband of the woman who greeted us at the door to come out also.

Those these were the ones leading the craziness that was going on? Were they members of your church ? Good Christians who got off into extreme teachings? Were they trying to bring people under their authority like a shepherding movement?

Subsequently we learned that the lady had just attended a meeting run by a well known Christian Celebrity in which the attendees were asked to practice deliverance on each-other.

You probably had reasons to be concerned if they're talking about "baby cribs" sounds like nutty things taking place but I think there can also be caution I'm wondering about your words. It seems you're down on maybe any ministry of saints to saints taking place in a home setting?

I was very disturbed about this and I am sorry to say it took me two years to have the courage to inform His eldership about what had happened.

And what does this mean Carl?

 

[spiritfilledjm]

That is an amazing testimony and as someone who came out of a movement like that, I can say that the reason why it is so easy for the enemy to get a foothold is that so many lack discernment. Unfortunately, when I brought this up, they did not repent and have either fallen away or still worship the gifts instead of the Gift Giver. This also caused harm to me and was the start of my own fallaway from the faith. I have since, obviously, rededicated my life to God and now attend and minister in a church that is very much spirit-filled but one that practices discernment.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Not sure what you mean, "and has burned it"? Are you saying they took the crib outside and destroyed it?

Yep, took it outside and burned it...

Those these were the ones leading the craziness that was going on? Were they members of your church ? Good Christians who got off into extreme teachings? Were they trying to bring people under their authority like a shepherding movement?

They were mutual friends from different churches who had attended the session on moving in the gifts. The meeting was hosted by a celebrity well known in the area of deliverance. It was not associated with a particular church.

You probably had reasons to be concerned if they're talking about "baby cribs" sounds like nutty things taking place but I think there can also be caution I'm wondering about your words. It seems you're down on maybe any ministry of saints to saints taking place in a home setting?

No the opposite was the case - until recently I was hosting a home church.

And what does this mean Carl?

Well for me a whole lot of things come out of this event.

First off there is a lack of vetting the suitability of folks getting involved with deliverance in the first place. This is because of a flawed theology that all should move in all the gifts and ministries.

Secondly those God chooses to specialise in deliverance should not presume to teach others unless they have the calling of a teacher.

Then there is the whole mess around celebrity Christianity - folks end up with such power over people who cant wait to attend the next conference - and the equation of... ( teaching in = spiritual fruit out ) is not stacking up and resulting in revival...

But the other side of the matter is how Jesus saw all that was going on and cared about the folks involved. The Host became a missionary in Asia... these were quality believers that loved Jesus.

And yes discernment was sorely lacking -

My view is that discernment operates in an atmosphere of unity and love in which the least are heard. This is sadly the opposite to the social dynamic of most churches. Guaranteed discernment is given to the Body of Christ but it cant function with power imbalance. In these late times we need to regain corporate humility and love if the 'very elect' are not to be deceived.

Why did it take two years for me to get the courage and front up to the Church leader who was oversight for this 'teacher' and blow the whistle ??

If it was easy for the least to be heard, I would have been there within days.

 

[Francis Drake]

I invite comment on the modern trend in teaching about the gifts, to encourage folks to practice the gifts on one another.

This even extends to deliverance, sometimes with disastrous results.

To support what I am saying I refer you to the following event that occurred.

About 36 years ago I was engaged to my Wife Sandi and we attended church one evening together. At the end of the service I got a call from a friend - he sounded excited and invited us to share in fellowship with him and a few friends at his home. immediately I felt uneasy for a reason I did not understand. So I mentioned to one of the elders that I was going into a situation that may be problematic and could he pray...

As we drove towards the house I heard the words repeatedly in my mind 'controlling spirit'.
Then I had a clear 'word of knowledge' and said to Sandi - "if we arrive at the house and someone says "I'm so glad you came... I would really love to pray for you" you will know by this, that the fellowship in the house is under the control of a controlling spirit.

Sure enough we parked the car and we could hear the worship and praise going on inside. So we knocked on the door, the door opened the greeting was "I'm so glad you came... I would really love to pray for you" By this we knew what was going on - there were brothers and sisters worshiping and falling down - they had 'discerned' that the baby's crib was spiritually unclean and has burned it - all manner of 'ministry' was happening.

So I watched what was happening for a while until the lady who opened the door wanted to 'lay hands' on me. So I gently declined and decided it was time to let the host of the house know what was going on.

I had lent him the book called 'War on the Saints' by Roberts and Penn-Lewis in which they looked back on the Welsh Revival and recorded the ways in which false spirits tried to infiltrate God's work. In the book they mentioned there was a young lady who was a false prophet but no one knew at the time.

So I said to the host - "remember in the book the young lady who was prophetic? I am giving you a choice - come out to the car now and pray with us off the property or I will leave."

So the host came out and sat in the car with us and I said to him that everything happening in there is under the control of a false controlling spirit... To my astonishment the Holy Spirit came upon him and he broke down into weeping repentance.

He was distraught and asked me what shall we do?

Well the Spirit was showing me how to unravel the situation by dealing with the authority structure so I said that he must ask his wife to come out to the car. His wife came out and I said exactly the same words about the controlling spirit. Amazingly she also was strongly touched by the Holy Spirit and was reduced to repentant weeping. What shall we do they asked again and the Lord showed me we needed to ask the husband of the woman who greeted us at the door to come out also.

Well exactly the same result - as I explained the problem - deep weeping repentance.

At this point the next step was to deal with the problem direct and pray for the mans wife. I remember thinking whether or not I should do this but the Lord indicated that the Host and the Husband should simply ask her permission to be prayed for. So they went back inside and prayed and the whole atmosphere changed immediately and peace and order was restored.

Subsequently we learned that the lady had just attended a meeting run by a well known Christian Celebrity in which the attendees were asked to practice deliverance on each-other.

I was very disturbed about this and I am sorry to say it took me two years to have the courage to inform His eldership about what had happened.

Bear in mind I am an unknown entity with no standing in Christian circles.

Thanks for you patience in reading about this. What we know is that He sees all, and cares deeply about our lives. He gives us insight and the gifts to deal with the infiltrations that occur within our fellowship.

Excellent testimony Carl.
But that doesn't mean we shouldn't be doing deliverance on each other does it.
Ultimately, the issue is discernment, and from my long experience, most controlling spirits are centred around church leadership structures.

 

[topher694]

Looks to me like you are still carrying some wounds from this event.

 

[Francis Drake]

Looks to me like you are still carrying some wounds from this event.

Who is this addressed to?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Looks to me like you are still carrying some wounds from this event.

If you are referring to me - I was for a while but have been healed - I am very happy to be ministering in Church.

 

[topher694]

Who is this addressed to?

Carl

 

[topher694]

If you are referring to me - I was for a while but have been healed - I am very happy to be ministering in Church.

I still see wounds

 

[Carl Emerson]

I still see wounds

Maybe you are seeing the sufferings of Christ that I am sharing in...

 

[Carl Emerson]

Your claim somewhat distracts from the thrust of the thread.

I am well related to a leadership team who are able to discern if such an issue still exists.

Why not respond to the issues I have raised?

 

[topher694]

Your claim somewhat distracts from the thrust of the thread.

I am well related to a leadership team who are able to discern if such an issue still exists.

Why not respond to the issues I have raised?

You can take it or leave it, but getting into further detail on this medium would not be appropriate. I have very extensive experience myself, but I always tell people further self-examination doesn't hurt anything.

As for the issues you raised. On a very basic level I very much agree with most of it and there are elements that appear to me to be colored by the above.

I've had to clean up even crazier situations. Truth be told if churches embraced inner healing and deliverance as a essential element of ministry situations like this would be much less likely to happen. Oversight, authority and boundaries are critical for this type of ministry, yet it is extremely powerful when done decently and in order.

 

[Carl Emerson]

You can take it or leave it, but getting into further detail on this medium would not be appropriate. I have very extensive experience myself, but I always tell people further self-examination doesn't hurt anything.

As for the issues you raised. On a very basic level I very much agree with most of it and there are elements that appear to me to be colored by the above.

I've had to clean up even crazier situations. Truth be told if churches embraced inner healing and deliverance as a essential element of ministry situations like this would be much less likely to happen. Oversight, authority and boundaries are critical for this type of ministry, yet it is extremely powerful when done decently and in order.

Thanks for the response...

Actually I wrote this and posted it in March 2019 here...

Jesus's Ministry

Post #17

It is since then (about six months ago) that the Holy Spirit woke me up at 2.30am and healed me of rejection and called me to a ministry in the church.
I have a prophetic disposition and misunderstanding, disrespect and even abuse has come with the territory.

So when I wrote it I was struggling with where I fit, but that is now resolved.

However - if you have a genuine sense that I would benefit from some insight from your quarter, please PM me and we can explore.

 

[topher694]

Thanks for the response...

Actually I wrote this and posted it in March 2019 here...

Jesus's Ministry

Post #17

It is since then (about six months ago) that the Holy Spirit woke me up at 2.30am and healed me of rejection and called me to a ministry in the church.
I have a prophetic disposition and misunderstanding, disrespect and even abuse has come with the territory.

So when I wrote it I was struggling with where I fit, but that is now resolved.

However - if you have a genuine sense that I would benefit from some insight from your quarter, please PM me and we can explore.

The big wounds in our lives are usually healed in layers over time. My wife has had the Lord lead her through healing due to her best friend in High Shool being killed 20, 25 and 30 years later... the big stuff was taken care of the first go round of course, but God keeps showing her stuff in His timing. I've experienced similar with the biggest issues in my life. Deliverance isn't an instance, it's a lifestyle.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I think it is both...

Anyway PM me if you want...

In the mean time back to topic.

Practicing the gifts...

Valid or not ??? and why...

 

[spiritfilledjm]

I think it is both...

Anyway PM me if you want...

In the mean time back to topic.

Practicing the gifts...

Valid or not ??? and why...

To answer your specific question. Yes, because, in my opinion, there is nothing in the Bible that says that they were only for the first generation of believers. I understand where cessationists come from about 1 Corinthians 13:10 but I just cannot believe that "the perfect" mean anything other than Jesus Christ and His return.

 

[Carl Emerson]

To answer your specific question. Yes, because, in my opinion, there is nothing in the Bible that says that they were only for the first generation of believers. I understand where cessationists come from about 1 Corinthians 13:10 but I just cannot believe that "the perfect" mean anything other than Jesus Christ and His return.

Yes! the gifts continue...

What I meant by practicing the gifts in this case was brothers and sisters being encouraged to deliver each-other from demons (with no concern as to whether they had the gifts or preparation from God to do so). This practice comes from the wrong assumption that all have all of the gifts (which is not biblical.) The result was a spiritual mess.

Sorry I did not make that clear enough it seems.

 

[spiritfilledjm]

Deliverance is something that is not to be done lightly. Praying away evil spirits and influences from yourself and your home is one thing, but attempting deliverance over another is something completely different entirely.

 

[topher694]

This practice comes from the wrong assumption that all have all of the gifts (which is not biblical.)

Not everyone agrees with this, including many highly respected and influential leaders in the Body of Christ with the fruit to back it up. And I'll just leave it at that.

As for the mess. My opinion is that it was not due to the gifts, but rather due to doing things out of order and without any spiritual covering.