POWER OF OUR TONGUE!!

[SavedByGrace3]

I repeat my objections to the idea that we can overrule the words of Jesus with the priciples of "mere theism":

I have serious problems with what I have come to call "mere theism" when compared with Christianity.

Mere theism is a faith that is based more on the "omni" factors as taught by theology. These "OMNI" factors are fine until they are used to overrule the gospel, the revelation of God that we have in Jesus, and plain statements we see in scripture.
For example, we often see the "omni" teaching of "super sovereignty". Super sovereignty says that God is so sovereign that He is not even subject to His own promises, His word, or even the gospel of Jesus Christ. This teaching takes the Bilbe teaching of sovereignty and says that God "does not have to heal" all those who believe since "that would be forcing God". This teaching is used to overrule that plain scriptural promises of the gospel and even the work that Jesus did on the cross, because "by His stripes we were healed".
Mere theism basically holds that the promises of the Word (that have already been made "yes and amen") are actually still subject to the immediate and individual will of God for each of us. IOWs, God can still say no to your faith, can still refuse to heal, save, deliever, and otherwise be true to His word. This effectually renders the principle of faith dead!. Faith is useless if we cannot believe that God has done what He said He has done and will do what He said He will do. If there is still the possiblity of a "no", or "maybe", then we have nothing to base our faith on. Faith requires that we believe that "we have received" when we pray, and this is impossible if God can renege on His word based on the "OMNI" teaching of "super sovereignty"
The "OMNI" treachings are an attempt to define God the Father and His nature by means other than that which God has revealed Himself. God revealed Himself in the person of Jesus... Jesus is the way God wants us to see and understand the Father, not the "OMNI" principles.

 

[AnonymousRex]

Didaskalos,

Mere theism is a faith that is based more on the "omni" factors as taught by theology. These "OMNI" factors are fine until they are used to overrule the gospel, the revelation of God that we have in Jesus, and plain statements we see in scripture.

Precisely what "plain statements" are you talking about? And how is it that theology has "overruled the gospel" if its purpose is to help us understand it more coherently?

For example, we often see the "omni" teaching of "super sovereignty". Super sovereignty says that God is so sovereign that He is not even subject to His own promises, His word, or even the gospel of Jesus Christ.

This criticism contains an absurd contradiction. It presupposes that it is possible for a perfect, omniscient, omnibenevolent God to make a mistake by doing something he later regrets, thus leading to an inconsistency in his character. His promises do not "bind" him in any way; He is God, and every decision he makes is without error. This doctrine of "super sovereignty" is not logically possible and is not postulated by any Calvinists. So yes, God does whatever he pleases, but as I said before, He can't do anything that is not logically possible (e.g. create a "square circle" or "a rock too heavy for him to lift"), because logic itself is a reflection of his noetic (cognitive)perfection. Thus, it is neither possible for him to make a promise he can't keep.

Sincerely,
AnonRex

 

[Old_100th]

While I do consider myself to be a "small c" charismatic I think it disturbing to think that charismatic doctrines may not be questioned on this forum. The Protestant Reformation had a doctrine known as "Semper Reformanda" or "Forever Reforming." This meant that the work of reforming doctrine is something that the church should ever be involved with. I can't refuse to question a doctrine simply because it is held by the status quo of the Reformed Community, or even because the doctrine under consideration is supported confessionally (the Reformed Confessions are the 3 Forms of Unity and the Westminster Standards).

This "Forever Reforming" idea is also applicable to charismatic people. If the majority of charismatics hold to WOF theology (and they don't) it doesn't mean that it can't be questioned. In fact holding on to doctrines because they are status quo is a sure way tp ensure the proliferation of heresy. If Christians way back at the beginning of the 20th century held to status quo doctrine, everyone would still be cessationist and there would be NO Charismatic movement, would there?

To this end I must say that what I and Anon were doing was not "bashing" as some have suggested. What we were doing was bringing to light percieved errors in a specific doctrine. If WOF is true then it will stand up to questioning. If it does not, then it cannot be true. Is this not the reason this board and others like it exist?

 

[Old_100th]

"I repeat my objections to the idea that we can overrule the words of Jesus with the priciples of "'mere theism'"


How exactly does Calvinism do this?

 

[HumbleBee]

Hebrews 1:1-3

In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

 

[FoundInGrace]

Well if that is true, why didnt he just get everyone saved 2000 years ago? God is not willing that any should perish. That is His will clearly stated in the Word. Now, if God can simply do what he wants, why have so many people rejected the Messiah and perish and why do so many more continue to do so? Why is there a hell for that matter?

This idea that God can simply do whatever he wants is just not true.

Why would you believe in Him if He can't do whatever He wants to? Why believe in a God that is limited? or in other words flawed?
That would mean we have to carry God - do everything perfect because God can't be counted on to do his part??? scary stuff! Heck of a lot of pressure on us mere mortals. 'my burden is light, my yoke is easy,' comes to mind, Jesus carries us not the other way round.

His will is being carried out over time even though it wasn't instant 2000 years ago. His son died to save us, so a means of salvation is set up. His truth time and time again makes sense in peoples lives, His principles just make sense in practice. Why He didn't do it all instantly i'm not sure, its HIs plan I guess, I'd love to know His reasoning on so many things though!!

He does act according to his character though which as somebody said is just. I think it says somewhere that He wont send Jesus back til all the nations have heard the gospel - part of his plan: he is giving everyone the chance to hear and respond (by rejecting Him or hopefully accepting Him). Seems fair.

I am sad there is a hell, I'm not sure why there is one except one of God's principles seems to be consequences. Maybe hell is one of them?

so we can all just sit back, watch football, and somehow the Gospel will still be preahced by itself, and souls saved and the sick healed?

I agree - just because we have that freedom does that give us the right to sin (by doing nothing or something wrong) no way, but we certainly have the freedom to do nothing if we want to, He can still get the message out there, God wrote on a wall once however why would we want to sit and do nothing?

Theres so much about God I don't understand but He's trustworthy (its taken me ages to be able to say that by the way) He knows what He's doing (and finally I'm starting to trust that He really does hehe), and most important He does everything in love - if He didn't He wouldn't be my God, I'd be looking for another

Whoa, this is a long post, sorry , if anyones read this far they're doing real well !!

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

While I do consider myself to be a "small c" charismatic I think it disturbing to think that charismatic doctrines may not be questioned on this forum. The Protestant Reformation had a doctrine known as "Semper Reformanda" or "Forever Reforming." This meant that the work of reforming doctrine is something that the church should ever be involved with. I can't refuse to question a doctrine simply because it is held by the status quo of the Reformed Community, or even because the doctrine under consideration is supported confessionally (the Reformed Confessions are the 3 Forms of Unity and the Westminster Standards).

This "Forever Reforming" idea is also applicable to charismatic people. If the majority of charismatics hold to WOF theology (and they don't) it doesn't mean that it can't be questioned. In fact holding on to doctrines because they are status quo is a sure way tp ensure the proliferation of heresy. If Christians way back at the beginning of the 20th century held to status quo doctrine, everyone would still be cessationist and there would be NO Charismatic movement, would there?

To this end I must say that what I and Anon were doing was not "bashing" as some have suggested. What we were doing was bringing to light percieved errors in a specific doctrine. If WOF is true then it will stand up to questioning. If it does not, then it cannot be true. Is this not the reason this board and others like it exist?

Charasmatic doctrine may be questioned, but not attacked. I'm not sure what you mean by little "c". In my opinion, one either is or is not. If you are not Charasmatic you may ask all the questions you desire. . .but you may NOT debate the answer once it is given. There are many other forums where debate against Charasmatic doctrine (big C) can be done . . .but not this one. The same may be done with the WOF. . .no attacking. . .no rude and vulger comparisons. . .period.

 

[Follower of Christ too]

*MOD HAT*

NOW THAT I'VE GOTTEN EVERYONE'S ATTENTION. . .THIS THREAD MAY CONTINUE ON

Thanks! I think the thread got off topic too! Power of the tongue. It still stands and always will.

 

[Old_100th]

I actually came here to state something, not ask a question. Since that time I have been asked many questions, and have been trying to answer them; which I may have responded to in question form. This is not debate. This is dialouge.

By "small c" I mean that I do believe in the use of spiritual gifts, but I am not a member of an openly charismatic denomination. In fact "Charis" means gift, and all Christians do believe so varied extents in these gifts. Therefore there is a certian extent to which all Christian believers are charismatics. I guess this forum needs to define "charismatic" in a more descriminatory way.

 

[Follower of Christ too]

When you read about the diciples and all the sufferings it isn't accidental that they always came out praising God. They always praised God and thanked Him. Never do you read that they were whipped down and complaining. To me this is positive speaking. You never read " well I am not believing that faith thing cause I was beat and left for dead." It isn't there.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

We all have been given a measure of faith. . .the same measure of faith. It is up to each of us what we do with the measure given. We can build on it and make it stronger or we can bury it and reduce it to nothing.

In Matt 4:3, 4 it says, "Now wen the tempter came to Him, he said, "if you are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread." But He answered and said, "It is written, "Man shall not live by bread along, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God""

Since we know that Jesus did only what He saw the Father doing we can safely conclude that He also only said what He heard the Father saying. . .thus His answer to the tempter.

Jesus Himself is saying that "it is written". Jesus Himself says that we will live by every Word that the Father has spoken. So. . .what is wrong with speaking His word and expecting to live off of it. . .whether in feast or famine?

I believe it's in Romans where Paul says that God speaks the things that are not as though they are. So what is bad about speaking forth His promises in PS 91 and having the expectation that He will do what He's promised?

This of course is a "life practice". One generally cannot just one day find themselves in need and start speaking and expect to receive what up to that point they have never practiced. And of course there are all sorts of other qualifiers.

My words mean nothing. But me, living righteously and repeating His Words, which if I'm abiding in Him are abiding in me, then in authority that He gave me, I can ask whatever I will, and it will be done. HE promised it. It's not my will it's His.

On the other hand, if I'm not abiding in Him then His words are not abiding in me and I can speak till the cow jumps over the moon and pretty much nothing will happen. God's desire is that we grow and mature in Him. It can be a short time or a long time. . .it depends on how much we are going to resist or comply.

 

[Old_100th]

I agree with everything you've said above; insofar as that which we ask conforms to the will of God and God can choose not to grant our requests. I see nothing said so far that challenges the Skerrittian/Edwardsian model I have proposed.

"Speaking" anything in and of itself is powerless.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I agree with everything you've said above; insofar as that which we ask conforms to the will of God and God can choose not to grant our requests. I see nothing said so far that challenges the Skerrittian/Edwardsian model I have proposed.

"Speaking" anything in and of itself is powerless.

That's pretty much what I said. . .which is what Jesus said, "if you abide in Me and My "words" abide in you, ask what you will and it will be done unto you. Our words do have an impact . . .for death or life.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

This criticism contains an absurd contradiction. It presupposes that it is possible for a perfect, omniscient, omnibenevolent God to make a mistake by doing something he later regrets, thus leading to an inconsistency in his character. His promises do not "bind" him in any way; He is God, and every decision he makes is without error. This doctrine of "super sovereignty" is not logically possible and is not postulated by any Calvinists. So yes, God does whatever he pleases, but as I said before, He can't do anything that is not logically possible (e.g. create a "square circle" or "a rock too heavy for him to lift"), because logic itself is a reflection of his noetic (cognitive)perfection. Thus, it is neither possible for him to make a promise he can't keep.

Reading your response I have to say that you appear so bound up by this theological position that you cannot see the simple truth the scriptures say.
I did not say it was a promise He cannot keep... I said a promise He does not have to keep.
Faith people base faith on words... words that He has already spoken. Words that He will not go back on because He does not lie. People of faith believe that it is already accomplished. His will has already been expressed and is as plain as the minisitry and life and passion of Jesus. There are no more decisions to be made on His part. It is finisthed. Either the work of Jesus made full salvation available to us all, or He failed.
"Whosover will..." means just that. Anyone who hears the word of Gospel and calls on His name will be saved, healed, delivered.... in everyway they will believe.
The difference between mere theism and Christianity is that Christianity knows the will of God and believes, while mere theism wonders, waits, and hopes.

 

[Andrew]

Why would you believe in Him if He can't do whatever He wants to?

I certainly wld not want to believe in a God who can "do what ever He wants", becos then He may just strike me down with lightning if he so wishes one day. No He is 'limited' by His Word. He cannot say 2+2=4 in his Word and then one day go against it.

but we certainly have the freedom to do nothing if we want to, He can still get the message out there, God wrote on a wall once

You forgot the Great Commission. God's way of spreading the Gospel is through the church, not by Him writing it on some wall.

SO again, no, I do not believe that God can just do whatever He wants. If that is true, then he can also lie and cheat, and change his words.

 

[Andrew]

"Speaking" anything in and of itself is powerless.

Do you mean that, say, if I keep telling a kid that he is dumb, ugly, careless and useless, those words are just water off a duck's back as far as he is concerned? ie totally 'powerless'?

Conversely, if I kept telling another kid that he was smart, beautiful and good, that wld make no difference to him either?

Maybe God is agreeing with me in the 2nd instance while the devil is agreeing with me in the first. If two shall agree... hmmm....

There is a spiritual realm, and the words we speak does affect things in that realm. And the spirit realm is more real and eternal than the physical.

 

[LilAngelHeart]

Andrew



In actuality, the Bible does say that God is in the sovereign position to do whatever he wants. In Psalm 115:3, it says, "But our God is in the heavens: He hath done whatsoever he hath pleased."

Does this verse imply anything remotely contrary to what it seems to clearly say? If it does I'm certainly not aware of it, although I will add a qualifier: since God is good, His actions will always be just. Even though the precise phrase "God is not the author of evil" is nowhere to be found in Scripture, the concept certainly is, that is, God is not a direct causal agent of sin. So yes, God does whatever he wants, but what he inevitably does is in syncopation with his just character.



What you have just stated represents a popular misconception of the irreducible sovereignty of God and His providence. In his commentary on the Westminster Confession, G.I. Williamson makes the following point:

"This objection is false because it contains a real contradiction. On the one hand, there is the supposition that God controls everything. But then, on the other hand, there is the foreign and contradictory supposition that certain personal actions may happen in a random and uncertain way. It says, in effect, that if all things are fixed by divine decree, then it makes no difference whether events 'a', 'b', and 'c' happen: we will still arrive at event 'd'. But the obvious fact is that 'a', 'b' and 'c' are events just as 'd' is, and the starting supposition is that God controls them all. Therefore, if God controls all things, it is obvious that they will work out only if each event leading to it also works out according to plan. Divine foreordination does not make our actions unimportant, but rather makes them exceedingly important. Thus Peter says, 'Brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall..." If God has elected us, then far be it from us to say that we will be saved no matter what we do. We must know that we can be saved only as we do that which God says the elect will do, namely, 'give diligence', etc." (p. 49 - The Westminster Confession of Faith for Study Classes)

(I am posting this because I believe he elucidates this better than I)

I would add, given the topic of evangelism, that preaching the gospel to the multitudes is the ORDAINED MEANS by which God calls out His people. I guess you could say that my position on human volition is that of a "soft compatiblist." More often than not, we do that which is in accordance with our personalities, but there are "isolated incidences" where our actions are not in agreement with who we are (because of our imperfection).

Hopefully this will help you understand where Old_100th and myself are coming from.

AnonRex

Sure God does whatever He wants, the thing is, what He wants is to not force Himself on us and He gives us space to make our own decisions about things and exercising our faith. What God wants is for us to choose Him without being made to choose Him, what God wants is for us to not be puppets that He controls like a puppet master pulling our strings, what He wants is for us to have freedom of choice. So sure He does what He pleases, and the way things are is How He wants it. Even if that freedom of choice means some will reject Him, He wants the choice to be ours. God is in control of everything and with that control He can make the rules and call the shots and determine how things will work, and God chose for there to be the element of choice, God chose for people to not be puppets but have our own control of our own life. So God does what He pleases and is in control of everything and with that control He has given us a certain amount of control of our own lives. If He didn't want that freedom, for us He wouldn't have given it to us. So it was God who's in control that chose to give up some contol in our life and gave us control over our own life.

If I have control over this thread and in my control I give you control over this thread, you have control of this thread but it was my control on whether you will have control over this thread or not. I have the ultimate control, I control whether or not you will have control.

God is in control of whether we have control of our own life or not. God is the one with the ultimate control, if He didn't want us to have certain freedoms and control of our own life He wouldn't have givewn it to us. God is in control but we still have freedom to make our own decisions and excercise our own faith. Why can't you understand that?

 

[LilAngelHeart]

Didaskalos,

So yes, God does whatever he pleases, but as I said before, He can't do anything that is not logically possible (e.g. create a "square circle" or "a rock too heavy for him to lift"), because logic itself is a reflection of his noetic (cognitive)perfection. Thus, it is neither possible for him to make a promise he can't keep.

Sincerely,
AnonRex

God can do anything He pleases, it does not have to be logical, what do you think miracles are? If it was logical it wouldn't be a miracle.

Also I want to say that God is not bound or limited by what your mind considers as logical. In the human mind, we can only understand simple human logic, God is bigger than the simple grasp of logic that humans can understand.

God can make a rock too heavy for Him to lift and at the same time be able to lift it!

 

[LilAngelHeart]

"Speaking" anything in and of itself is powerless.

Everyone here has been saying that it is God's power through our words, not our power. You are the only one who keeps insisting that we are using our own power, and then argue that it's not possible.

 

[Old_100th]

God can do anything He pleases, it does not have to be logical, what do you think miracles are? If it was logical it wouldn't be a miracle.

Also I want to say that God is not bound or limited by what your mind considers as logical. In the human mind, we can only understand simple human logic, God is bigger than the simple grasp of logic that humans can understand.

God can make a rock too heavy for Him to lift and at the same time be able to lift it!

I agree, God is totally beyond or greatest conception of him. The Trinity for example. Regarding this doctrine Spurgeon said "Try to explain it, you'll loose your mind, try to deny it, you'll loose your soul." However this does not mean that there are any contradictions or logical impossibilites therein.

If you want to say that God can do the logically impossible you must also be prepared to say nothing at all about God. For instance, you can't say "God is love." Why? If God can do the logically impossible he can also not be love. God is love and not love? I'm working out the logical end of your view. I don't think so, Pontiac.

Miracles are perfectly logical. A God who has power over the created universe probably has the power to heal, raise from the dead, create something from nothing, etc. There is no contradiction or "fuzziness" in God.

God cannot create a rock so heavy he can't lift it. Why? He's all powerful, and for him to do so is therefore a contradiction. I rock so heavy he couldn't lift it would have to be too heavy and not too heavy at the same time. This violates the Law of Non-contradiction (A is not non-A).

God created logic, therefore to violate it would be against his holy nature. Can you think of anywhere in the Bible where we are told that God can do anything? Please tell me if you can.

About words: While God can do certian things we ask for, our words CANNOT have any supernatual effect on anything. You've misunderstood what I'm talking about.