Postrib vs Dispy

[Eschatologicaldisaster]

All just too confused for reply.
We will soon see what will really happen.

Keras,

Is the leader a horn or a head of the beast? If you think he's not a horn and is indeed a head, can you please provide scripture to support that. As a writer of biblical studies on prophecy, I'd be interested in what that research has shown you.

 

[Timtofly]

The problem with this is, you're choosing a poor example of a Christian nation to compare with Sodom and Gomorrah. Why is that? Why would you pick the *worst example* of a Christian people to disprove that there can be a good Christian nation?

So your Christian nation does not have to be responsible nor answer to God?

My point was that the stronger an alledged Christian nation is, the more they will be judged for.

 

[RandyPNW]

So your Christian nation does not have to be responsible nor answer to God?

My point was that the stronger an alledged Christian nation is, the more they will be judged for.

Well, I certainly don't disagree with that! That's true for Christians too. The more we know, the more we are held accountable for. But that's doesn't mean we're not true Christians, simply because we're held more accountable, and sometimes fall short.

Christian nations, however, are not the same thing as Christian individuals. A person can be a Christian completely, without perfection. But a nation is never 100% genuine Christian. A Christian nation is one in which the vast majority *profess* to be Christian. The reality is that only a minority are ever both genuine Christians and faithful to their Christian practice.

 

[Douggg]

Revelation 13:3 says that leader will be given a death blow, a mortal wound.
Maybe he won't actually expire before Satan enters his body, but he surely would have, if Satan didn't.

Satan does not enter into the person for him to become the beast.

The three different persons are:

the beast - a man possessed by the spirit of the beast. Empowered by Satan.
the false prophet - a man, a religious figure, who speaks the lies of Satan.
Satan - an evil angel, who will incarnate the statue image of the beast.


The beast connotation is because the disembodied spirit of the original serpent beast in the garden of eden - used by Satan - will come out of the bottomless pit enter the soul of the slain man of sin, at the time he comes back to life. On my illustrations below.

Satan will though figuratively or literally enter the Antichrist when he carries out the transgression of desolation act in 2Thesslaonians2:4. Which is why the Antichrist is called the son of perdition at that point like Judas.

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[keras]

Keras,

Is the leader a horn or a head of the beast? If you think he's not a horn and is indeed a head, can you please provide scripture to support that. As a writer of biblical studies on prophecy, I'd be interested in what that research has shown you.

I actually don't worry about what will happen when the Anti-Christ will be in power for his 42 months. Because the faithful Christians will be taken to a place of safety then. Revelation 12:14.

What really should be our focus, is the forthcoming Lord's Day of fiery wrath. Are you a child of the light? 1 Thessalonians 5:3-11

 

[Christian Gedge]

Satan does not enter into the person for him to become the beast.

The three different persons are:

the beast - a man possessed by the spirit of the beast. Empowered by Satan.
the false prophet - a man, a religious figure, who speaks the lies of Satan.
Satan - an evil angel, who will incarnate the statue image of the beast.


The beast connotation is because the disembodied spirit of the original serpent beast in the garden of eden - used by Satan - will come out of the bottomless pit enter the soul of the slain man of sin, at the time he comes back to life. On my illustrations below.

Satan will though figuratively or literally enter the Antichrist when he carries out the transgression of desolation act in 2Thesslaonians2:4. Which is why the Antichrist is called the son of perdition at that point like Judas.

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View attachment 302126

You could get a good job making horror movies.

 

[Eschatologicaldisaster]

I actually don't worry about what will happen when the Anti-Christ will be in power for his 42 months. Because the faithful Christians will be taken to a place of safety then. Revelation 12:14.

What really should be our focus, is the forthcoming Lord's Day of fiery wrath. Are you a child of the light? 1 Thessalonians 5:3-11

In response to your last question, I'd like to think so keras.

Since you made a comment about the Antichrist, the comment should be scriptural right? Otherwise, we could be giving ourselves and others bad eschatology. That goes for me, you or anyone else. If you suggest the Antichrist would die and be resurrected, you're suggesting he's a head of the 7 head's (one of it's head's were wounded). Though Daniel says he is a horn which 10 of the first are on the beast with 7 head's. That is why I previously asked, how many head's does a man have?

In the above quote, you made an emphatic statement which you uphold. But that statement may or may not be true. You quote Rev 12:14 as a way to support Christians being saved. But what about the rest of the women's seed that Satan goes to make war with? Those who hold the testimony of Christ - they are those in the faith too. If they have faith, they are believers with a Holy spirit guiding them and are also part of the promise. If you're only suggesting God will save believers at some point, then I agree with that statement as He has always saved a remnant of His people.

 

[Douggg]

Though Daniel says he is a horn which 10 of the first are on the beast with 7 head's. That is why I previously asked, how many head's does a man have?

The little horn in Daniel 7 is on what beast in Daniel 7? The fourth beast, which is the Roman Empire.

In Revelation 17:10, the 7 heads are referring to 7 kings associated with the location of 7 mountains, in v9, i.e. Rome.

1. Julius Caesar
2. Augustus Caesar
3. Tiberius Caesar
4. Caligula
5. Claudius
6. Nero

7. little horn person - leader of the EU.
8. beast - the little horn person after he is killed and brought back to life. Dictator of the fourth kingdom, the Roman Empire, in the end times the EU.

 

[keras]

In the above quote, you made an emphatic statement which you uphold. But that statement may or may not be true. You quote Rev 12:14 as a way to support Christians being saved. But what about the rest of the women's seed that Satan goes to make war with? Those who hold the testimony of Christ - they are those in the faith too. If they have faith, they are believers with a Holy spirit guiding them and are also part of the promise. If you're only suggesting God will save believers at some point, then I agree with that statement as He has always saved a remnant of His people.

Consider Daniel 7:23-25, paralleled by Revelation 13:7, where God's people are defeated by the armies of the Anti-Christ. Where does this happen? We are told in Revelation 11:1-8...in the Holy City, where the Lord was crucified. Zechariah 14:1-2 and Daniel 11:29-35, also describe this 3 1/2 year period of traumatic testing for the people of the Lord, WHO ARE LIVING IN THE HOLY LAND AT THAT TIME.

Revelation 12:1-17 is very informative and gives more details of this 3 1/2 year, 42 month or 1260 day period: that chapter tell us that Satan will be thrown out of the spiritual realm and will come to earth, his angels with him. He pursues the 'woman', that we know must refer to all righteous Christian Israel. Israelites as per Galatians 3:26-29. They are then living in peace and prosperity in the holy Land, as many prophesies describe. The new nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5

The 'many' who had agreed to a peace treaty with the Anti-Christ, the leader of the One World Government, Daniel 9:23-27, are those who remain in the Land, Revelation 12:17, Zechariah 14:2b. the rest must stay....
But those who refuse to accede to that treaty, will leave the holy Land and will be taken to a place of safety, where they will be looked after for 1260 days, in a place prepared by God. Zechariah 14:2b -half go into exile, Revelation 12:6
This separation of the Christians is proved by Daniel 11:32

These are Biblical truths, proving the many prophesies about the great Second Exodus into all of the holy Land, of all the Lords people, from every tribe, nation, race and language, Revelation 5:9-10 & 7:9, that will happen before the Return of Jesus. Then, He will destroy those conquerors of the holy Land, along with the rest of those gathered by Satan, Revelation 16:14, and bring all His people back to Jerusalem, Matthew 24:31, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

 

[keras]

Though Daniel says he is a horn which 10 of the first are on the beast with 7 head's.

8. beast - the little horn person after he is killed and brought back to life. Dictator of the fourth kingdom, the Roman Empire, in the end times the EU.

Dougg could be right about those seven heads, but he is wrong about the EU resurgence of the Roman Empire.
The Empire which will be formed by the Anti-Christ, will be worldwide, Daniel 7:23, the only exception will be the holy Land, the new Christian nation of Beulah.
The 10 are people appointed as Presidents of each of the 10 world regions, as already decided. google; 10 world regions.

 

[Douggg]

Dougg could be right about those seven heads, but he is wrong about the EU resurgence of the Roman Empire.
The Empire which will be formed by the Anti-Christ, will be worldwide, Daniel 7:23, the only exception will be the holy Land, the new Christian nation of Beulah.
The 10 are people appointed as Presidents of each of the 10 world regions, as already decided. google; 10 world regions.

The prince who shall come is from the people who destroyed the temple and city. The Romans. Rome is in the EU.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

 

[Eschatologicaldisaster]

The little horn in Daniel 7 is on what beast in Daniel 7? The fourth beast, which is the Roman Empire.

In Revelation 17:10, the 7 heads are referring to 7 kings associated with the location of 7 mountains, in v9, i.e. Rome.

1. Julius Caesar
2. Augustus Caesar
3. Tiberius Caesar
4. Caligula
5. Claudius
6. Nero

7. little horn person - leader of the EU.
8. beast - the little horn person after he is killed and brought back to life. Dictator of the fourth kingdom, the Roman Empire, in the end times the EU.

I'm sorry Doug, but let us stick with what scripture tells us. It doesnt say its the Roman empire, you believe that and that makes it your opinion.

The 4th Kingdom is not named. Lets stick with facts and not opinions here where we can use scripture to look it over.

Secondly, you make the assertion the 7 heads of Rev 17:10 are 7 earthly Kings with Rome. Now I don't know if you are aware, but there are many cities on this planet that are known as having 7 hills. =P

Yet we are told elsewhere in the text what a mountain represents Doug, and it isnt a literal mound of dirt. Though I could give you a few, I'll post one. Jeremiah 51:25
In that text, the mountain is Babylon..a Kingdom. Its ruler was a man. Now you could say Sennacherib or Nebuchadnezzer. Either way, each head represented a specific Kingdom and a specific ruler of that Kingdom. That only was the case while the heads wore crowns, but we see later on that the crowns are removed and placed ON the horns.

You think its Rome because Rome comes after Grecian - well sorta if you remove other nations that actually were between the 2. But let's for argument sake say it's Rome. Rome was the "is" to John when he was told the prophecy. The other head was not yet come. So who comes AFTER Rome and who leads that Kingdom? Then there is an 8th head we'd need to talk about too.

But in it all, the idea that is must be Rome lays upon the idea that Rome succeeded Grecian. Yet Babylon, Persian and Grecian still remain. The statue of gold, silver and brass has not been destroyed yet till the rock smashes its feet and then all at once they are destroyed. Your placing all your hope in Rome and yet the others still exist. Rome never crushed, destroyed and removed nations. They built them up, they employed them in their military and they allowed those nations to continue with their religions. It was Antiochus who wanted to Hellenize the Jews...before then they enjoyed their religion as did other nations under Roman control. Yet the 4th Kingdom is one that crushes, breaks down and destroys all leaving no residue. Rome never did that.

 

[Douggg]

Secondly, you make the assertion the 7 heads of Rev 17:10 are 7 earthly Kings with Rome. Now I don't know if you are aware, but there are many cities on this planet that are known as having 7 hills. =P

Yes, but they didn't have a king (the sixth) ruling at the time of John in the first century.

Yet we are told elsewhere in the text what a mountain represents Doug, and it isnt a literal mound of dirt. Though I could give you a few, I'll post one. Jeremiah 51:25
In that text, the mountain is Babylon..a Kingdom. Its ruler was a man. Now you could say Sennacherib or Nebuchadnezzer. Either way, each head represented a specific Kingdom and a specific ruler of that Kingdom. That only was the case while the heads wore crowns, but we see later on that the crowns are removed and placed ON the horns.

The crowns are not removed from the seven heads and transferred over to the ten horns - assuming that is what you mean.

The seven heads are seven sequential kings - not kingdoms.
The ten horns are ten concurrently ruling kings.

The ten kings rule concurrently with the beast king and give their kingdom to him - Revelation 17:16-17.

You think its Rome because Rome comes after Grecian - well sorta if you remove other nations that actually were between the 2. But let's for argument sake say it's Rome. Rome was the "is" to John when he was told the prophecy. The other head was not yet come. So who comes AFTER Rome and who leads that Kingdom? Then there is an 8th head we'd need to talk about too.

It is not "kingdoms" in the text, but kings.

 

[keras]

The prince who shall come is from the people who destroyed the temple and city. The Romans. Rome is in the EU.

I proved you wrong; it will be a worldwide empire.
I proved there is no 'rapture to heaven'.
You won't accept correction. So be it.

 

[Douggg]

I proved you wrong; it will be a worldwide empire.
I proved there is no 'rapture to heaven'.
You won't accept correction. So be it.

The kingdom of the beast in Revelation 13:1-2, it's body was comprised of a lion, bear, leopard components. None of those were worldwide. And even as a conglomeration in the end times, they are not world wide.

The kingdom of the beast will be dominate over the other kingdoms of the earth, and will be calling the shots. But will not be a global empire, nor one world government.

Should not be long before we know who the person is.

 

[RandyPNW]

Satan does not enter into the person for him to become the beast.

The three different persons are:

the beast - a man possessed by the spirit of the beast. Empowered by Satan.
the false prophet - a man, a religious figure, who speaks the lies of Satan.
Satan - an evil angel, who will incarnate the statue image of the beast.

My own view is that the two beasts are both political powers and the individual men who will lead them. Beasts are brute animals and represent political powers driven by carnal spirits.

Satan is indeed an evil, disobedient angel. He will endow the 1st Beast, the Antichrist, with his authority, which rules the present carnal world. All who are carnal will love the Antichrist and Satan, if indeed they reject the testimony of the Gospel.

I can only speculate about what the resurrection of the Beast will be and what the speaking of the image of the Beast refer to. My thought is that the resurrection of the Beast will be the restoration of the Roman Empire, since it had fallen, both in the West and in the East, and had broken up into various nation states.

The image of the Beast may refer to the same thing, the pagan worship of the emperor that used to exist in the ancient Roman Empire. But I guess.