Postrib vs Dispy

[RandyPNW]

I'm Postrib and also believe in the future salvatioin of national Israel. I think it's important to state this because many Postribs reject Israel in prophecy altogether, or reinterpret it to apply to the international Church.

Let me say, first of all, that there is a difference between the biblical view of national salvation and the biblical view of individual salvation. National salvation has more to do with the survival of the entire society rather than with spiritual salvation.

But these things are obviously tied together. God said that without spirituality and without obedience, a nation will not be saved. It will ultimately perish or suffer significant judgment.

Many get confused about this because they think that saving a society is not important in relation to saving an individual. Actually, both are important to God--both nations and individuals. The nation protects the individual, and thus provides a healthy spiritual climate for the individual if the nation is itself generally spiritual, or tolerant of spirituality.

The problem with Postribs who deny the place of national Israel in prophecy is that God did indeed promise this to Abraham. And God doesn't break His promises. Though the Early Church gave up hope in Israel's future salvation because Israel didn't repent, this does not mean that after many generations God cannot begin again with Israel, and ultimately refine her through the fires of His judgment.

So I do believe in Israel's future salvation, and also in the salvation of other nations--primarily Christian nations. Like Israel, many Christian nations have fallen on hard times, and have come under divine punishment. If Israel can be saved, so can these former Christian nations.

So where in the Bible do we see the salvation of Christian nations? We don't, because when the Bible was written Christian nations did not yet exist. And yet God promised them to Abraham. He was promised he would become father of a multitude of nations.

The problem I see with Pretribs and their Dispensationalism is that not only are they wrong about Pretrib itself, but also wrong to emphasize Israel's salvation through the lens of OT realities. They see Israel as returning to the Law, and they see Israel as still an exclusive nation in a sea of pagan nations.

That reality has changed, although some of it remains true. Whereas the nations ultimately capitulate to paganism it is not true that other nations did not become nations of God. Many nations have become Christian nations. They just ultimately fall, as Israel did. All nations do, ultimately, turn against Israel.

So the idea is to recognize that Israel is no longer alone in prophecy, and the future will involve not just Israel's recovery, but also the recovery of many other nations, formerly of faith. And most certainly, there will be no return to the Law. If all nations oppose Israel, they also oppose the idea of "Christian nations." They will stand not in opposition to the practice of the Law of Moses, but rather, in opposition to Christ and to those promised to Christ.

 

[DavidPT]

Like Israel, many Christian nations have fallen on hard times, and have come under divine punishment. If Israel can be saved, so can these former Christian nations.

Much of what you said in the OP I tend to agree with for the most part. What I have quoted by you above though, name one nation that was ever a Christian nation and what made them one. Christan nations post the 2nd coming, now that is something I can fully agree with. But Christian nations prior to that, that doesn't even seem realistic since I can't think of one government, past or present, who governed that nation the same way Christ might and would. In these nations around the world, both past and present, these consist of crooked and evil governments, crooked courts and judges, so on and so on. In what way would any of them have ever been a Christian nation in the past?

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

There is no need for a Christian nation. The Holy Spirit binds all the believers into one body and builds them into one temple, a dwelling place of God. He guarantees the Heavenly inheritance and will one day effect their resurrection and glorification.

Besides what do you a Christian nation for? That will only say to the non-believers that we think we are better than them. The law is written in our hearts, we don't need a nation. Btw, if we are in Christ, then our home is no longer here on Earth, but it is in Heaven.

 

[Christian Gedge]

So I do believe in Israel's future salvation, and also in the salvation of other nations--primarily Christian nations. Like Israel, many Christian nations have fallen on hard times, and have come under divine punishment. If Israel can be saved, so can these former Christian nations.

When I think of national revivals, I think of nations like Ireland who forsook paganism for Christianity under the ministry of St Patrick. I think of England who heard John Wesley and were saved en-mass in the early 18th century. Then there were the 1st and 2nd 'awakenings' in America.

So yes, I believe there will be a large scale repentance in Israel shortly before Jesus returns. Are we on the same wavelength Randy? Or are you talking about something different when you emphasise 'national' salvation?

 

[keras]

The belief of a general Jewish redemption is wrong and is not prophesied to happen.
Zechariah 12 does say some Jewish families will finally acknowledge Jesus. But Zechariah 13, Isaiah 6:11-13, Romans 9:27, + all say; that only a remnant of the House of Judah will survive.

The Antichrist will persecute Christians. The Church does not have to be 'raptured', in order for a powerful dictator to enjoy world dominance.
Revelation 12 is the clear scripture on this issue:
We see how Satan will come personally to the earth. He will take over the dead body of the Leader of the One World Govt. Revelation 13:1-8
He will persecute the Christians, but those who have keep their faith in God, will be taken to a place of safety on earth. The rest must remain in Jerusalem. Rev 12:17

A pre=trib 'rapture to heaven', is a fable and the Dispensationalist idea of a Jewish redemption is false; many have fallen for it, to their discredit.

 

[RandyPNW]

When I think of national revivals, I think of nations like Ireland who forsook paganism for Christianity under the ministry of St Patrick. I think of England who heard John Wesley and were saved en-mass in the early 18th century. Then there were the 1st and 2nd 'awakenings' in America.

So yes, I believe there will be a large scale repentance in Israel shortly before Jesus returns. Are we on the same wavelength Randy? Or are you talking about something different when you emphasise 'national' salvation?

As much as I'd like to believe Israel will receive large scale repentance, I don't think it will happen. Israel has been hardened by the swell of unbelievers among the Jews for thousands of years. God always has a remnant, however, to keep the flame of Israel's national hope burning.

I believe that when Jesus returns, that's when what remains of Israel will be regathered into the land of Israel, to be reconstituted as a Christian State. "Many who are first will be last, and the last will be first." Israel was the first to be a nation of God, and now it will be the last to be a Christian state. The Gentile nations who were last to become nations of God were the first to become Christian states.

I do agree, however, that major revivals have restored Christian nations from their spiritual decline. This gives Christian nations hope of restoration, much like Israel has hopes of a Christian restoration.

 

[RandyPNW]

There is no need for a Christian nation. The Holy Spirit binds all the believers into one body and builds them into one temple, a dwelling place of God. He guarantees the Heavenly inheritance and will one day effect their resurrection and glorification.

Besides what do you a Christian nation for? That will only say to the non-believers that we think we are better than them. The law is written in our hearts, we don't need a nation. Btw, if we are in Christ, then our home is no longer here on Earth, but it is in Heaven.

So is becoming a Christian family a statement that my family is better than non-Christian families? So what if a Christian family is, in fact, better than a pagan family? So what if a Christian nation is better than a pagan nation?

Quite often when I say this, the initial reaction is negative. The first thought is about fallen Christian nations that hypocritically behave as bad as a pagan nation. What causes this kind of reaction? What makes one think Christian nations must always be hypocritical--more hypocritical than pagan nations?

What makes a nation important is the same thing that makes the family unit important, or natural resources important, or meeting basic social needs important. A nation provides all of these things. And a Christian nation is certainly better at doing these things than a pagan nation, assuming the Christian nation is even acting as a good Christian nation.

 

[RandyPNW]

Much of what you said in the OP I tend to agree with for the most part. What I have quoted by you above though, name one nation that was ever a Christian nation and what made them one. Christan nations post the 2nd coming, now that is something I can fully agree with. But Christian nations prior to that, that doesn't even seem realistic since I can't think of one government, past or present, who governed that nation the same way Christ might and would. In these nations around the world, both past and present, these consist of crooked and evil governments, crooked courts and judges, so on and so on. In what way would any of them have ever been a Christian nation in the past?

That is such a cynical way of looking at things. Yes, Christian nations have corruption in them just as Christians have a sin nature in them. When I refer to "Christian nations," I'm not referring to a nation as if it's a born again individual.

No, a Christian nation is a society in which the prevailing religion is accepted to be Christianity. As such, there have been many Christian nations. Please consult any encyclopedia.

Individuals and nations are not the same thing, and thus, their Christian constitution is different. An individual gets saved. A nation consists of a people, whose majority profess Christianity. It remains up to the individual to actually get saved.

God wanted and promised both individual salvation and national salvation. God wants not just hermits, but societies. He cares both about the individual and his social environment.

 

[Christian Gedge]

I believe that when Jesus returns, that's when what remains of Israel will be regathered into the land of Israel, to be reconstituted as a Christian State. "Many who are first will be last, and the last will be first." Israel was the first to be a nation of God, and now it will be the last to be a Christian state. The Gentile nations who were last to become nations of God were the first to become Christian states.

So, you are talking of ‘Christian nations’ during a future millennium? I guess that’s a one-step improvement on the dispy idea of a 1000-year world under a reconvened ‘old covenant.’

But both ideas suggest a world of nominal ‘Christian statehoods’ where sin could flare up at any time. If I’m reading you right, I think I’ll stick with Amil.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

So is becoming a Christian family a statement that my family is better than non-Christian families? So what if a Christian family is, in fact, better than a pagan family? So what if a Christian nation is better than a pagan nation?

Quite often when I say this, the initial reaction is negative. The first thought is about fallen Christian nations that hypocritically behave as bad as a pagan nation. What causes this kind of reaction? What makes one think Christian nations must always be hypocritical--more hypocritical than pagan nations?

What makes a nation important is the same thing that makes the family unit important, or natural resources important, or meeting basic social needs important. A nation provides all of these things. And a Christian nation is certainly better at doing these things than a pagan nation, assuming the Christian nation is even acting as a good Christian nation.

Born again Christians are indeed a Spiritual/Heavenly nation of God. We are in this world but we are not of this world. The Holy Spirit is binding all Christians into one body of Christ, a temple, where God dwells.

Is then a physical nation needed? I don't think so. Of course we are ought to behave better than non-Christians, we are the Light of the world, and if we don't behave like one, there's no use of us. Because the Holy Spirit is dwelling in us, it will produce the good fruits that non-believers can't produce as they are dead in sins. My point was, if we decide to have a physical nation, it can repel the non-believer even more from God and Church....unless I am missing your point, and this is not what you meant.

 

[Timtofly]

So is becoming a Christian family a statement that my family is better than non-Christian families? So what if a Christian family is, in fact, better than a pagan family? So what if a Christian nation is better than a pagan nation?

Quite often when I say this, the initial reaction is negative. The first thought is about fallen Christian nations that hypocritically behave as bad as a pagan nation. What causes this kind of reaction? What makes one think Christian nations must always be hypocritical--more hypocritical than pagan nations?

What makes a nation important is the same thing that makes the family unit important, or natural resources important, or meeting basic social needs important. A nation provides all of these things. And a Christian nation is certainly better at doing these things than a pagan nation, assuming the Christian nation is even acting as a good Christian nation.

To whom much is given, much will be required.

Your alledged Christian nation will have a lot more to answer for than a pagan one. That is why Sodom and Gomorrah will stand in judgment against such a privileged nation. Even Nineveh will stand in judgment against these nations.

 

[RandyPNW]

Born again Christians are indeed a Spiritual/Heavenly nation of God. We are in this world but we are not of this world. The Holy Spirit is binding all Christians into one body of Christ, a temple, where God dwells.

But you are now using "nation" as a metaphor, while I'm not. That creates confusion. We have to be on the same page to explore whether *literal nations* can be Christian or not.

Is then a physical nation needed? I don't think so. Of course we are ought to behave better than non-Christians, we are the Light of the world, and if we don't behave like one, there's no use of us. Because the Holy Spirit is dwelling in us, it will produce the good fruits that non-believers can't produce as they are dead in sins. My point was, if we decide to have a physical nation, it can repel the non-believer even more from God and Church....unless I am missing your point, and this is not what you meant.

When you say "we," who are you talking about--all Christians on earth, an individual church, a particular denomination? Christians have the same need as any other groups of people. We require the basics of life, including a nation to protect us and to provide a healthy social environment.

To collectively determine to have a Christian State is simply a matter of electing a Christian leadership from among a 90% Christian people. If the Christian people in a particular nation are lower than 50%, there's going to be problems trying to establish a Christian leadership over a non-Christian majority.

 

[RandyPNW]

To whom much is given, much will be required.

Your alledged Christian nation will have a lot more to answer for than a pagan one. That is why Sodom and Gomorrah will stand in judgment against such a privileged nation. Even Nineveh will stand in judgment against these nations.

The problem with this is, you're choosing a poor example of a Christian nation to compare with Sodom and Gomorrah. Why is that? Why would you pick the *worst example* of a Christian people to disprove that there can be a good Christian nation?

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

When you say "we," who are you talking about--all Christians on earth

I mean all the born again Christians.

We require the basics of life, including a nation to protect us and to provide a healthy social environment.

God protects us.

To collectively determine to have a Christian State is simply a matter of electing a Christian leadership from among a 90% Christian people. If the Christian people in a particular nation are lower than 50%, there's going to be problems trying to establish a Christian leadership over a non-Christian majority.

Romans 13:1 'Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.'

It is God who determines who the authorities are. It is God who puts people in charge, do we even deserve a Christian government? For what I understand from scriptures, the leaders of this world are only going to get worse the closer we are to Jesus' return.

There is no such nation that has so many Christians. Many people identify as Christians, but they are not.

 

[DavidPT]

No, a Christian nation is a society in which the prevailing religion is accepted to be Christianity. As such, there have been many Christian nations. Please consult any encyclopedia.

Randy, I'm going to do what a lot of folks neglect to do at times when they shouldn't be neglecting to. I'm going to admit you have a valid point here, thus, how one is looking at something makes all the difference in the world.

For example, North Korea. For example, the USA. Which of these two have ever resmbled a Christian nation at anytime, meaning how you are meaning? I can see it fitting the USA. I can't see it fitting NK, though. So, maybe you are correct after all, otherwise there shouldn't be this major difference between the USA and NK involving religion.

 

[Eschatologicaldisaster]

The belief of a general Jewish redemption is wrong and is not prophesied to happen.
Zechariah 12 does say some Jewish families will finally acknowledge Jesus. But Zechariah 13, Isaiah 6:11-13, Romans 9:27, + all say; that only a remnant of the House of Judah will survive.

The Antichrist will persecute Christians. The Church does not have to be 'raptured', in order for a powerful dictator to enjoy world dominance.
Revelation 12 is the clear scripture on this issue:
We see how Satan will come personally to the earth. He will take over the dead body of the Leader of the One World Govt. Revelation 13:1-8
He will persecute the Christians, but those who have keep their faith in God, will be taken to a place of safety on earth. The rest must remain in Jerusalem. Rev 12:17

A pre=trib 'rapture to heaven', is a fable and the Dispensationalist idea of a Jewish redemption is false; many have fallen for it, to their discredit.

I highlighted a portion of your comment above.

I'd like to ask, where does the Bible state the Antichrist or if you prefer, the man of sin, will be dead while Satan takes over his body and brings him back to life? Scripture is clear in Rev 13 and Daniel 7 in that regard.

 

[keras]

I'd like to ask, where does the Bible state the Antichrist or if you prefer, the man of sin, will be dead while Satan takes over his body and brings him back to life? Scripture is clear in Rev 13 and Daniel 7 in that regard.

Revelation 13:3 says that leader will be given a death blow, a mortal wound.
Maybe he won't actually expire before Satan enters his body, but he surely would have, if Satan didn't.

BTW; Eschatological disaster only happen when people fail to read all of the Prophesies, or add their own fanciful ideas.

 

[Eschatologicaldisaster]

Revelation 13:3 says that leader will be given a death blow, a mortal wound.
Maybe he won't actually expire before Satan enters his body, but he surely would have, if Satan didn't.

BTW; Eschatological disaster only happen when people fail to read all of the Prophesies, or add their own fanciful ideas.

keras,

Rev 13:3 does not state a leader will be given a death blow.
1. How many head's does a man have?
2. The man of sin is identified as a horn in Daniel 7; one that comes up after the original 10. These horns are on the beast with the "head's". One of it's heads are wounded. The horn is not slain and resurrected.

In verse 1, we are told:
1And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea

Men are never shown to rise out of the sea. Only the earth. The beast that rises out of the sea is a Kingdom and not a man. Daniel 7:3 and Daniel 7:23 makes that abundantly clear.

It continues: having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns,

Now why would this leader, as you put it, have authority as a head if the horns wear the crowns and not the heads?

I'm sorry, but the Holy word states no such thing.

PS: Sometimes an Eschatological Disaster strikes when we hold the wrong prophetic views.

 

[keras]

keras,

Rev 13:3 does not state a leader will be given a death blow.
1. How many head's does a man have?
2. The man of sin is identified as a horn in Daniel 7; one that comes up after the original 10. These horns are on the beast with the "head's". One of it's heads are wounded. The horn is not slain and resurrected.

In verse 1, we are told:
1And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea

Men are never shown to rise out of the sea. Only the earth. The beast that rises out of the sea is a Kingdom and not a man. Daniel 7:3 and Daniel 7:23 makes that abundantly clear.

It continues: having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns,

Now why would this leader, as you put it, have authority as a head if the horns wear the crowns and not the heads?

I'm sorry, but the Holy word states no such thing.

PS: Sometimes an Eschatological Disaster strikes when we hold the wrong prophetic views.

All just too confused for reply.
We will soon see what will really happen.

 

[RandyPNW]

Randy, I'm going to do what a lot of folks neglect to do at times when they shouldn't be neglecting to. I'm going to admit you have a valid point here, thus, how one is looking at something makes all the difference in the world.

For example, North Korea. For example, the USA. Which of these two have ever resmbled a Christian nation at anytime, meaning how you are meaning? I can see it fitting the USA. I can't see it fitting NK, though. So, maybe you are correct after all, otherwise there shouldn't be this major difference between the USA and NK involving religion.

Yes, I'm sure we're right. But please help me explain it properly, because I shouldn't be catching all this flak for something that is pointedly in the encyclopedias! Thanks much!

Just FYI, I've been running this idea across at least 5 different forums, and I get much the same from all of them. However, in several of them I get partial acceptance, questions, or silence.

To be honest, the ideas I'm throwing out there seem somewhat unique to me, and for that reason alone it should be questionable. However, these issues just never seem to be raised, and I think they are very relevant.

The scary thing is, the very fact Christianity tends towards failure indicates that the theology of a Christian nation is likely to be rejected by those who do not *want* a dogmatic Christianity in their state.

This would be akin to Israel turning away from Moses, once he's gone, and turning to worship the golden calf, which will allow them to do anything they want. I pray that we embrace God's idea for Israel, which was that they become a godly nation, dedicated to only one God. God does not change, and our devotion should know no compromise.

I'm not proposing revolution in our nation, but rather, a pure Gospel of what ideally is the proper nation before God. I can deal with compromises for the sake of peace. But I cannot deal with a diluted Gospel message.

In my view, the so-called "freedom of religion" will become idolatry if it is not understood to be a compromise agreement with pagans in our country (the U.S.). We should not *preach* freedom of religion as a part of our Gospel message.

Our Gospel must be and always be "salvation through one religion alone." There is only one religious system that can preserve the nation, and that is Christianity--not "freedom of religion."