If the righteous go to heaven and the wicked go to hell then who is left to inhabit the earth during the 1000 year reign of Christ?
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Originally posted by Rjano21
I do understand your point here, but the post-trib position (at least the one I believe) holds that the rapture occurs immediately prior to the Second Coming (perhaps a half hour earlier... see Rev 8:1).
If the first resurrection is after the great tribulation, how then can the rapture in 1 Thessalonians be before it (since the resurrection and rapture are simultaneous)? I believe these two passages teach clearly that there is only one rapture, and its after the mark of the beast.
Originally posted by postrib
[B> ...the "Restrainer" is the
> Holy Spirit...
I don't believe the one holding back the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) can be the Holy Spirit because many Christians will still be on the earth during the Antichrists rule (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13), and no one can be a Christian without the Spirit (Romans 8:9).
> ...and would also indicate
> the Church...
I don't believe the one holding back the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) can be the church because many Christians will still be on the earth during the Antichrists rule (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13), and there are no Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).
http://www.geocities.com/postrib [/B]
If the righteous go to heaven and the wicked go to hell then who is left to inhabit the earth during the 1000 year reign of Christ?
That view doesn't leave anybody to inhabit the earth for the 1000 year reign
This analogy alone proves that there are three distinct phases of the 'first' resurrection.
I believe the "He that letteth" or the "Restrainer" is the Holy Spirit, and would also indicate the Church.
Originally posted by Rjano21
The only rapture mentioned by Jesus Christ himself is after the tribulation (Matt 24:31). Why did he not mention a rapture before the tribulation if one existed? Was he trying to deceive us and cause confusion? Of course not.
The first resurrection of the dead has not begun yet, that's an unfounded belief with no Bible support. To this day, Christ himself (and the 3 people he raised while on earth) are the only people who have been resurrected. There can't be more than one "first" resurrection, thats a logical impossibility.
Originally posted by Debbie
I havent seen any scripture which indicates that at the 2nd coming all people will be killed.
Originally posted by Debbie
If there have been immortal bodies given to the ressurected dead in Christ for the last 2000 years, I missed it. Not much has been said about these people other than what is in the Bible, and that was at least 1905 years ago.
What other people have been resurrected & given immortal bodies in the last 1907 years? I haven't heard one name mentioned, how am I expected to believe this has been going on, unknown, for 1907 years?
Originally posted by Debbie
Jesus fullfilled the law on the cross per scripture. Is it a sin now to be uncircumcised?
I don't believe he left and came back, but that in John 20:17 he was telling Mary not to hold on because (as he told the disciples in John 14), he still had to go to heaven before he came back for good. I believe Matthew 28:9 and John 20:17 describe the same event from different perspectives....Yet later on he commands others to touch him. This implies that at some point between these two occasions he had ascended into heaven...
Paul's "heavenly vision" of Jesus (Acts 26:19) wasn't a physical coming of Jesus to earth....there is still the unmistakeable appearance of Jesus to Paul...
I believe we can be the bride and the guests, for while the bride is one, she is made up of many members (1 Corinthians 12:12), which were all invited by the preaching of the gospel to become part of the body of Christ, though some believers will be subsequently rejected because of unrepentant unrighteousness (Matthew 22:2-14; Revelation 16:15, 19:8)....wedding guests...
I believe it would be the 2nd resurrection, after the millenium....the wicked being cast out and the righteous staying. This is a seperate resurrection...
While it's true that only God can restrain evil, he does this through his angels (for example, Revelation 20:1-3, 12:7-9). God himself cannot be "taken out of the way" (2 Thessalonians 2:7) like angels and nations can be, for he is omnipresent....If you don't think the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit, then who is He?...
I believe the OT saints are now also part of the bride, for even though at one time they weren't yet (compare Matthew 16:18, Luke 7:28) because they died before the cross and before Pentecost, I believe that after the resurrection Jesus went and preached to them (1 Peter 3:18-19, 4:6) and led them up into heaven with him (Ephesians 4:8-10). I believe the old covenant was abolished on the cross, so that Christ was able to join all the saints previously under the old covenant and all the saints under the new covenant into one body (Ephesians 2:12-19, 4:4-6), which body is his bride (Ephesians 5:30-32). Now all believers are after the cross and after Pentecost....Could anyone be saved before Pentecost?...
How could saints living after the cross and after Pentecost (not OT) who have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13) not be in his body, which is the church? "He is the head of the body, the church" (Colossians 1:18), "The church, Which is his body" (Ephesians 1:22-23), "His body's sake, which is the church" (Colossians 1:24). And how could they not have the Spirit dwelling in them? "Ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his" (Romans 8:9). The Holy Spirit won't leave us when the tribulation begins: "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever" (John 14:16)....the Old Testament mentions saints, too...
Note that in no scripture are we promised a rapture before the tribulation. Jesus said he would come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and Paul said Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8)....after the Rapture, prior to the 7-year reign of the Antichrist...
I believe the Spirit is answering the voice from heaven....the Holy Spirit is in heaven, not on earth:
"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them." Revelation 14:12-13...
Does it say "sanctification?"...white "sanctification" robes in heaven, not earth...
I don't believe the Bible anywhere says that Jesus can come to gather us together at any time, but says the opposite (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, compare Matthew 24:29-31)...."Come", a call for watchfulness and imminence...
I believe Christ alone was the firstfruits of the resurrection into immortal bodies: "As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming" (1 Corinthians 15:22-23). I don't believe Matthew 27:52-53 was a resurrection into immortal bodies, but that they were simply resuscitated like Lazarus was (John 12:1)....Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Now this is an interesting resurrection...
Yes, and I believe that Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, and 1 Corinthians 15:52 is referring to the same "coming" of Jesus and the same "gathering together" of the saints and the same "trumpet" and the same "clouds" as Matthew 24:29-31, which says all these will occur "immediately after the tribulation." I don't believe the scriptures teach a 3rd coming or a 2nd rapture....Jesus used the term "gather"...
Would Jesus need to force those who returned with Him to come up to Jerusalem to worship Him? (Zechariah 14:16-18) Would we need to rule those who returned with Him with a rod of iron? (Revelation 2:26-29)...All that will be left will be the glorified Lamb and those who returned with Him...
"The priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law" (Hebrews 7:12). "He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second" (Hebrews 10:9)....In all the OT law why would Jesus transgress JUST THIS ONE, yet keep all others?...
Not directly, but I believe knowing the rapture's timing is still important because if some Christians believe with all their heart that Jesus has promised them a pre-trib rapture, couldn't "many be offended" if it doesn't happen?...salvation doesn't depend upon even having a clue as to what prophecy means...
Originally posted by postrib
I believe we can be the bride and the guests, for while the bride is one, she is made up of many members (1 Corinthians 12:12), which were all invited by the preaching of the gospel to become part of the body of Christ, though some believers will be subsequently rejected because of unrepentant unrighteousness (Matthew 22:2-14; Revelation 16:15, 19:8).
Originally posted by postrib
While it's true that only God can restrain evil, he does this through his angels (for example, Revelation 20:1-3, 12:7-9). God himself cannot be "taken out of the way" (2 Thessalonians 2:7) like angels and nations can be, for he is omnipresent.
The restrainer could be the archangel Michael, but it may not be. In Daniel 12:1 "stand up" (amad) may not mean "stand down" because amad is used consistently in Daniel (8:22, 23, 25; 11:2, 3, 4, 7, 14, 20, 21) to refer to the rising up of a power. Daniel 12:1 probably refers to the 2nd coming; Michael may be the archangel referred to in 1 Thessalonians 4:16.
The restrainer may be another angel, AND a political power that keeps the Antichrist from taking over the Middle East and Europe: in Paul's day it would have been the Roman Empire; today it would be the US. The US has to be removed as a superpower in the world before the Antichrist can take over the Middle East and Europe.
Originally posted by postrib
I believe the OT saints are now also part of the bride, for even though at one time they weren't yet (compare Matthew 16:18, Luke 7:28) because they died before the cross and before Pentecost, I believe that after the resurrection Jesus went and preached to them (1 Peter 3:18-19, 4:6) and led them up into heaven with him (Ephesians 4:8-10). I believe the old covenant was abolished on the cross, so that Christ was able to join all the saints previously under the old covenant and all the saints under the new covenant into one body (Ephesians 2:12-19, 4:4-6), which body is his bride (Ephesians 5:30-32). Now all believers are after the cross and after Pentecost.
How could saints living after the cross and after Pentecost (not OT) who have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13) not be in his body, which is the church? "He is the head of the body, the church" (Colossians 1:18), "The church, Which is his body" (Ephesians 1:22-23), "His body's sake, which is the church" (Colossians 1:24). And how could they not have the Spirit dwelling in them? "Ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his" (Romans 8:9). The Holy Spirit won't leave us when the tribulation begins: "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever" (John 14:16).
Originally posted by postrib
Note that in no scripture are we promised a rapture before the tribulation. Jesus said he would come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and Paul said Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).
Originally posted by postrib
I believe Christ alone was the firstfruits of the resurrection into immortal bodies: "As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming" (1 Corinthians 15:22-23). I don't believe Matthew 27:52-53 was a resurrection into immortal bodies, but that they were simply resuscitated like Lazarus was (John 12:1).
Originally posted by postrib I believe the resurrection and changing of all Christians into their immortal bodies will occur at a single point in time, at the "last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52), at the 2nd coming of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:23), and that this is why it says "the first resurrection" will also include all of us Christians who will die in the tribulation (Revelation 20:4-5). [/B]
Originally posted by postrib Is there a verse that some believe requires the rapture be before the tribulation? My only concern is if there isn't a pre-trib rapture that nobody think that something has gone wrong. [/B]