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Post-Tribulation vs. Pre-Tribulation.

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by -777warrior-, Mar 18, 2002.

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  1. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    Maybe the men of Nineveh's resurrection mentioned in Matthew 12:41, was the same resurrection mentioned elsewhere in Matthew 27:52-graves opened.
     
  2. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    Debbie,

    Would the men of nenevah have been buried in Jerusalem?

    Rolling Thunder,

    post-trib hasn't made it plain whethere we are forbidden to use ALL of the OT or are only forbidden to use those verses which contradict his position. Perhaps he could clarify this for us.
     
  3. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Christian
    Willis:
    You didn't point out how either appearance you showed required that Jesus went to heaven before his ascension or has returned to the earth since his ascension in Acts 1.

    Our being the bride and the guests at the same time is as odd as our being the bride and the brother and the sister and the mother and the children of Jesus all at the same time: "For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother" (Matthew 12:50), "Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them?" (Matthew 9:15) And is as odd as Israel being the son and the bride and the children of God all at the same time: "Thus saith YHWH, Israel is my son, even my firstborn" (Exodus 4:22), "Turn, O backsliding children, saith YHWH; for I am married unto you" (Jeremiah 3:14).

    "The priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law" (Hebrews 7:12).

    Note what God says to Israel even after divorcing her: "Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you" (Jeremiah 3:14), and note what Israel says: "I will go and return to my first husband" (Hosea 2:7).

    The Apostles to whom John 15:15 was spoken are the very foundation of the bride (Revelation 21:9, 14).

    Again, I believe the OT saints are now also part of the bride, for even though at one time they weren't yet (compare Matthew 16:18, Luke 7:28) because they died before the cross and before Pentecost, I believe that after the resurrection Jesus went and preached to them (1 Peter 3:18-19, 4:6) and led them up into heaven with him (Ephesians 4:8-10). I believe the old covenant was abolished on the cross, so that Christ was able to join all the saints previously under the old covenant and all the saints under the new covenant into one body (Ephesians 2:12-19, 4:4-6), which body is his bride (Ephesians 5:30-32). Now all believers are after the cross and after Pentecost.

    I believe there are no Christians outside of the bride, for all believers form a single body (Ephesians 4:4-6), which is the bride of Christ: "We are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church" (Ephesians 5:30-32).

    I don't believe any OT scripture rules out a post-trib rapture, or requires a pre-trib rapture.

    I don't believe Paul taught a 3rd coming.

    I believe that is the 2nd resurrection.

    I believe John 5:28-29 and Matthew 25:32-46 refer to the 2nd resurrection

    If Daniel 12:2 refers to the 1st resurrection, I believe the shame would be that of the wicked, lazy Christian servant, for "We must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord..." (2 Corinthians 5:10-11) "Thou wicked and slothful servant... Cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 25:26, 30). "And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear" (1 Peter 1:17).

    Can you cite the OT verses I have refused to consider, so we can see what they say?

    Some may feel we shouldn't continue to waste our time discussing when the rapture is going to happen in relation to the tribulation because the faith of pre-tribbers is in Jesus, not rapture timing. But if we believe scripture is the word of Jesus himself, then doesn't what we believe scripture promises necessarily relate to our faith in Jesus himself?


    http://www.geocities.com/postrib
     
  4. mcfly1960

    mcfly1960 Member

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    Protestant
    If everyone who is lost on Earth at the Second Coming is killed, then I don't really see anybody "living" to rule over. If any did manage to survive and since the First Resurrection has already been completed, that would leave only lost people to rule and reign over (but as we saw in Revelation 19, they were all killed). I think that Revelation 19 and 20 are symbolic of Christ's literal and utter triumph over Satan and evil at the last day, ending with the Last Judgement, then the New Heaven and New Earth. I believe the 1000 year rule is symbolic of Christ's and the saints' triumph together over that evil, while the "rest of the dead", those of the Second Death, await the Last Judgement with Satan, who is bound the same amount of time, 1000 years, in the bottomless pit. The "1000 years" could happen on the same day, if we apply II Peter 3:8-10.

    As far as a great disappointment is concerned, we should all be reminded of when Jesus walked on the Sea of Galilee. There was a great storm brewing, and Peter saw Jesus walking on the sea. In a leap of faith, Peter jumped out of the boat and walked on the sea with Jesus. Suddenly, Peter began to hear the storm and took his eyes off Jesus. He began to sink. "And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?" Matthew 14:31

    In our study of Bible Prophecy, too many are caught up looking for the Antichrist and the mark of the beast. We should not be looking for the Antichrist, but for Christ. And I believe that this is the superiority of the Pre-trib position. One of imminnence, watchfulness, and hope. I pray that mid-tribbers and post-tribbers have this hope too.
     
  5. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    You're mixing analogies. God uses different examples to compare our relationship to him and to Christ. At one point Jesus looks over Jerusalem and comments how he would like to have related to them as a mother hen who gather's her chicks under her wings. That is a great analogy, but it is SEPERATE from the marriage example. So it isn't difficult to reconcile our relationship to see it as chick's under a hen's wings, or as a brother-brother relationship etc. What is confusing is that in a SINGLE analogy of a MARRIAGE relationship we are at times friends, bride, ten virgins, and wedding guests. It violates the continuity of the wedding example.


    Yes, she will RETURN to her FIRST husband. Thanks for the verse, it supports my position.

    In John Jesus calls the apostles 'friends' (a further building on 'friends of the bridegroom'?) The revelation verses need a lot more explaining in order to prove your point.

    The rest of your post is recycling a previous post in which you make the same points, and stating what you believe. Your points may be valid as long as you ignore the old testament and make Christ a transgressor of the law. But it is interesting how you can't make up your mind about whether the righteous of the OT are part of the first resurrection or part of the second resurrection. In one place you say "I believe the OT saints are now also part of the bride" yet in another place you say of the righteous men of ninevah "I believe that is the 2nd resurrection." It would seem you are having difficulty fitting this group neatly either into one resurrection or the other. Why is that?

    Let's assume for a moment (a very big assumption) that Jesus is not now 'bound' by the OT law. Do you have any scripture which tells us we should ignore the law when studying about Jesus?

    Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

    Jesus himself said that the law of moses was about Jesus, that all must be fulfilled.

    You've requested that I repost the ot verses which rule out a post trib rap. So here are the three verses I quoted earlier, one from the NT and two from the OT.

    Isn't God wonderful? He recognizes the love between two people and makes a special rule so that nasty things like war doesn't interfere with that love. He is concerned that a man might die in battle and never consumate the love he feels for his intended bride. God even gives the newly weds an entire year together to enjoy their relationship. Now if we believe some people we'd have to say that this arrangment is too good for his only begotten son and his bride, the church. They don't deserve a year of marriage bliss before the bridgroom has to rush off to earth and slaughter the enemy. Not only that, but that the slaughter must happen DURING THE WEDDING FESTIVITIES!! I can see it now, exchange of the vows, slaughter humanity, sit down to wedding feast, sounds like a plan. :(
     
  6. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    Willis, I didnt see in Matthew 27 that the graves which opened, were IN Jerusalem, but rather that these resurrected saints went into & appeared in Jerusalem. Their graves could have been anywhere on Earth, IMO.

    I guess that would depend on whether they were resuscitated like Lazurus, or part of the first fruits which have resurrected with immortal bodies. If they were resuscitaed, they couldn't walk to Jerusalem, but if they were part of the first fruit resurrection, they could appear in the holy city from any grave on earth.
    I see all sides here, except questioning whether or not this should be discussed. "the testimony of Jesus Christ is the spirit of prophecy". Case closed. (REv.19:10)
    If Jesus is still under the law, then Willis is right about the rapture having to occur at least a year before Armageddon.
    Cor. nor Thess. show a distinction between the 2nd coming or rapture, as if they are one event.
    A pretrib rapture is just not scriptural, IMO. I feel compelled as other posters here, to tell other pretribbers the same thing for fear of some losing faith or living in fear when a pre trib rapture doesnt occur. Strange that we feel the same motive for spreading the word. I agree that we should always be watchful & always ready, as all here agree.
    If Jesus is still under the law, the only virgins ,(proper bride),mentioned are the 144,000 Messianic Jews. The rest of us could be guests.
     
  7. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    mcfly1960:
    Is there a verse that requires this?

    Will all the lost on the earth be in the armies at Armageddon?

    Someone who believes the rapture is after the tribulation doesn't look for the Antichrist instead of Christ, just as a pregnant woman doesn't look for birth pangs instead of the birth of her child, but they know what must come first (1 Peter 4:12-13). Christ's coming to gather us together must destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, compare Matthew 24:29-31).

    I don't believe the Bible anywhere says that Jesus can come to gather us together at any time, but says the opposite (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, compare Matthew 24:29-31).

    Note that in the Bible, "watching" doesn't mean staring up in the sky waiting for something to happen at any moment; it means to stay awake (Matthew 26:38-41). Christ will come like a thief for us only IF we fall asleep spiritually (Revelation 3:3, 1 Thessalonians 5:4-6).

    What is the blessed hope? "In hope of eternal life," "That blessed hope," "The hope of eternal life" (Titus 1:2, 2:13, 3:7). How can it be mutually exclusive with going through tribulation? "We glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope" (Romans 5:3-4). "Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation" (Romans 12:12).

    *******
    Willis Deal:
    Exactly my point.

    As much as "the same is my brother, AND sister, AND mother" (Matthew 12:50) violates the family example?

    Yes. Can a Jew avoid hellfire apart from faith in Christ? Can a Jew have faith in Christ without being part of the bride? For all believers form a single body (Ephesians 4:4-6), which is the bride of Christ (Ephesians 5:30-32).

    Note that both Revelation 19:7 and Revelation 21:9 refer to the wife of the Lamb. And note who this wife includes: "the twelve tribes of the children of Israel" (Revelation 21:12).

    "There is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof" (Hebrews 7:18).

    They are part of the first resurrection.

    Did Ninevah remain righteous? (Nahum 3) Will those in "this generation" of Luke 11:32 rise in the 1st resurrection of believers?

    I believe Jesus did fulfill the law and the prophets just as he said he would (Luke 24:44-48), and so was able to abolish the law on the cross (Ephesians 2:15, Colossians 2:14). I believe the old covenant was disannulled by the new covenant (Hebrews 7:18, 12).

    The scriptures teach that Holy Spirit-led believers don't have to keep the old covenant law (Galatians 5:18, 3:23-25; Romans 7:6, 3:20-22; Acts 15:24-29, 15:10-11), and that they're in great danger if they make this a requirement for salvation (Galatians 5:1-6).

    "The priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law" (Hebrews 7:12).

    Jesus' making war after his marriage won't separate him from us in any way, as we will be descending to Armageddon right behind him: "The marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white.... Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb... And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war... And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean" (Revelation 19:7, 8, 9, 11, 14).


    http://www.geocities.com/postrib
     
  8. mcfly1960

    mcfly1960 Member

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    I will not be redundant on what I have already posted but would recommend you re-read Revelation 19:18. I would ask, Do you think there will be any saved after the First Resurrection? How long would any lost Revelation 19 survivors who missed the First Resurrection live?
     
  9. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    You are correct in that the bible doesn't say specificly that the graves were in Jerusalem. It of course doesn't in any way imply they were anywhere else and the verse says (to me in my understanding) that the earthquake which marked the crucifixion opened the graves which allowed the saints to arise during the resurrection, so how widespread would the earth quake have been? In any event, I don't think the passage can be used to support that these were the men of ninevah that were resurrected and it does conflict with Jesus' words that they rise in judgment WITH the wicked generation Jesus was talking to. I won't close the door on that line of reasoning but a person would have to work hard to develop a good case for that interpretation. I realize you weren't offering that interpretation as being proven, just as a theoretical 'it could have been this way'. I also agree with you that prophecy is certainly a topic worth discussing. God would not have given us prophecy if he'd wanted us to ignore it.


    It isn't even necessary to state positively that Jesus is under the law (though I believe he is), if you can just see that God gives us a wedding analogy and you think that what God has to say regarding marriage will provide further insight into what he is trying to tell us then we can accept the OT scriptures that I've quoted. I'm not trying to bring Christians into bondage under the law. The bible is very clear that we are not bound, but the reason we are free is because Jesus fulfills the law on our behalf, and through him we fulfill the law. To state it another way, the law (bible) are God's WRITTEN word, Jesus is God's LIVING word. They will not, cannot, contradict each other but bare witness of one another.

    Now, about Thes. and Corin. In neither book will you find the term 'second coming'. Rather than rely upon the usual scriptures that pre-tribers quote and which have been debated to the point of nausea, I have offered 'fresh' verses which calls into serious doubt the one resurrection and one appearance of christ that post-tribbers rely upon for their teaching. When you see that the rapture takes place at least a year before Christ returns on the white horse, when you see there are stages to the first resurrection, with different people being raised at different times, when you see that the appearance of Christ at the rapture has to be a seperate appearance from the white horse coming, then you can start to really explore what God is trying to tell us. Do corinthians and Thessalonians RULE OUT more than one appearance of Christ, or are they only giving one piece of a much larger puzzle?

    If you can accept the OT as a forshadowing or giving further insight into prophecy Jesus as high priest must take a wife 'from his own people' yet his own people (Israel) is the divorced wife of God and therefore he cannot take her as wife. A bit confusing but the bible also tells us that Christians are adopted into the family, that we become children of God and brothers and sisters of Christ, so we are legally 'of his (Christ's) people'. He would be free to marry the church without violating the law of God. Rev. doesn't tell us that the 144,000 are the bride. The sexual sin of harlotry was applied by God to Israel because she followed after idols or other gods. By this reasoning virginity would mean the person hadn't followed other gods. This is in perfect harmony with Paul's words to the corinthian church 2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
     
  10. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    post-trib

    You keep quoting the same verses. What you have not done is shown a compelling reason to ignore what God says about marriage when he gives us a marriage analogy. Relying upon the events described in Rev being sequential is also problematic, since a good case can be made that several of the events are described from different viewpoints and therefore events in SOME verses do not necessarily happen right after the events in the previous verses. Rev. is also full of symbols and complex spiritual meanings. The very fact that you rely on John's vision of the NJ being a SYMBOL of the bride, who is actually a group of people, and not actually the place where the bride lives, gets very complex. While I accept that the NAMES of the apostles that are WRITTEN on the stones of the foundation could imply that they are part of the bride, since this is all symbolic it could have another meaning as well.
     
  11. mcfly1960

    mcfly1960 Member

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    Protestant
    "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" Titus 2:13

    "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing." II Timothy 4:8

    "16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
    17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Revelation 22:16-17

    "He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus." Revelation 22:20

    Comments:
    The Blessed Hope of eternal life is correct from a salvation point of view. From an eschatalogical view, however, I believe the Blessed Hope is that Christ could return at any moment.

    The hope that Christ can return at any moment, as well as the hope of eternal life, gives us encouragement to face tribulation. And as Paul said (who you also quoted above), such tribulation encourages more hope. So we are both right!

    I would say that tribulation renews the Blessed Hope of both eternal life and His glorious appearing. And all of those in Christ should have both "Blessed Hopes". If that is not your eschatalogical view, I believe it is serously flawed and would recommend you reconsider.

    (I think there is some truth in all the views. I think post-trib "works" only if you consider the History of the Church itself the tribulation (historical premillenialism), and that the Second Coming could occur at any moment. The only view that "works" with dispensational premillenialism (the view that the tribulation is still future and involves Israel), I believe, is pre-trib. By the way, I do disagree with some of the dispensational view, will discuss more later)
     
  12. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Willis Deal:
    I don't believe I have ignored anything regarding the marriage analogy.

    Note that the Bible shows neither the judgment nor the marriage of the church nor the marriage supper as happening before or during the tribulation, or in heaven.

    The marriage and supper are not announced until the 2nd coming, immediately before we descend with Christ at Armageddon: "The marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb... And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean" (Revelation 19:7-9, 14).

    "The bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage" (Matthew 25:10).

    After the tribulation, I believe the rapture will gather us into the clouds to be judged (Psalms 50:4-5, Mark 13:27) and married (Revelation 19:7) before Armageddon. The supper will be on the earth after Armageddon (Revelation 19:17, Isaiah 25:5-9).

    I believe New Jerusalem is where the Father will dwell with us after the millenium: "I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God" (Revelation 21:2-3). "I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it... The throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it" (Revelation 21:22, 22:3).

    On what basis would the Apostles not be part of the bride? "Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife... And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb" (Revelation 21:9, 14). "God hath set some in the church, first apostles" (1 Corinthians 12:28). "Ye... are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord" (Ephesians 2:19-21).

    *******
    mcfly1960:
    I don't believe the Bible anywhere says that Jesus can come to gather us together at any moment, but says the opposite (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, compare Matthew 24:29-31).

    In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, I believe Paul makes clear that the apostasy and abomination of desolation must occur before the day Jesus comes to gather us together, for Jesus' coming to gather us together must destroy the Antichrist (verse eight). I believe Paul is referring to the same coming and gathering together as Matthew 24:29-31. I don't believe Paul taught a 3rd coming or a 2nd rapture.


    http://www.geocities.com/postrib
     
  13. mcfly1960

    mcfly1960 Member

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    Protestant
    Since 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 and Matthew 24:29-31 seem to be stumbling blocks for you on this point, I think you will have to study these further.

    Any view that does not know that Christ can come for His Church at any time, either by the individual believer's death or by the coming of Christ for the entire Church at the Resurrection and Rapture, is a spiritually blind and deaf one that does not see and hear the end of Revelation.


    "16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
    17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Revelation 22:16-17

    "He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus." Revelation 22:20
     
  14. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

    504
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    1 Cor.15:51-52... "Behold I shew you a MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep,but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
    Rev 10:7- " BUt in the days of the voice OF THE 7TH ANGEL,WHEN HE SHALL BEGIN TO SOUND, THE "MYSTERY" OF GOD SHOULD BE FINISHED, as He hath decalred to HIs servants the prophets."
    Rev.11:11- dead rise
    Rev.11:15- "And the 7TH ANGEL SOUNDED; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of this world ARE BECOME THE KINGDOMS OF OUR LORD, AND OF HIS CHRIST; AND HE SHALL REIGN FOR EVER AND EVER."
     
  15. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Christian
    mcfly1960:
    How does this require that he can come at any moment?


    http://www.geocities.com/postrib
     
  16. mcfly1960

    mcfly1960 Member

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    Protestant
    We can die at any moment, right? Only God knows the day and hour. This does not necessarily mean we will die.

    The same is true with the Resurrection and Rapture of the Church.

    If you don't think the Resurrection and Rapture can occur at any moment, then you are just like someone that thinks death could not occur at any moment.

    But the Resurrection and Rapture can occur at any moment. Only God knows the day and hour. Until that day that the elect Church is complete, our mission continues. To proclaim the gospel to all nations.
     
  17. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Why would this be necessarily true?

    Note that no verse says this.

    "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:36-37).

    Here I believe Jesus is referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" as when he said "immediately after the tribulation of those days... they shall see the Son of man coming" (Matthew 24:29-30). I don't believe he taught a 3rd coming.

    Note that Jesus didn't say "no one will know the day" (future tense) but "no one knows the day" (present tense).


    http://www.geocities.com/postrib
     
  18. mcfly1960

    mcfly1960 Member

    159
    +2
    Protestant
    I will look at your stumbling block verses for the imminent return of Christ.

    The traditional view of the Church (the way I understand it) has been that the tribulation of those days refers to the time of the Gospel going out up until the end of the world when the elect body is complete. Only God knows when the elect body is complete. So Christ's return, and the Resurrection and Rapture are imminent.

    Maintaining the imminent return of Christ for the Church, Pre-trib Dispensationalists see a second application for the elect remnant of Israel, after the fullness of the Gentiles has come in and the Church has been Resurrected and Raptured.
     
  19. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    I believe that posttrib and I have at least one point on which we can agree. Jesus cannot come at ANY moment. There is only one moment in time in which it is APPOINTED for him to come.
     
  20. mcfly1960

    mcfly1960 Member

    159
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    Protestant
    Then you are both fools, if you think God does not know this time before the foundation of the world, and that it can happen at anytime.
     
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