Post-Denominationalism

[Erose]

Except that it is NOT what you wrote there.

Rather, it is the claim we see below:

Well in the case of both they are true, and they are true because both statements are true.

 

[Erose]

I respect that. I also respect all others who think their church is THE Church because for all who know and love the Lord I believe to be THE Church. And after worshiping with so many, I can't believe that any particular congregation or denomination can legitimately claim exclusivity re that. Most of us attend a particular denomination or congregation because it feels right to us. And I don't have a problem with that either. If it feels right to you, then you are most likely where you're supposed to be.

On this we agree. When I started my Christian journey way back when truth was important to me, still is. The denomination that I left when I realized and could no longer ignore that they were teaching something other than what Scripture taught, I don't consider those people in my old church any less Christian than I, never have and never will. I have always appreciated all the time that they spent with me, and I will never forget they it was they that introduced me to the Lord.

The thing here I want to emphasize is that we are not talking about who is a better Christian or worse; that IMO has nothing to do with theological knowledge. It has more to do with relationship one has with God. But I also think one cannot ignore the importance of getting to truly know the person that you are developing and deepening a relationship with. Theology is important, in that it tells us who God is. And I do think that there is a danger to being able to develop a true relationship with Him, if there is too much stuff that you have wrong about Him. Its like someone loving a supermodel that they have posted on their wall. A teen can fantasized having a relationship with that model, can even develop a very detailed belief about who this supermodel is, but can that teen ever truly love the person that the image represents, without truly knowing the what is really true about that person?

 

[Open Heart]

As many―if not all―of you probably already know, the attitude and/or idea of Post-Denominationalism is that salvation extends to everyone in the Body of Christ, whether or not they belong to one's particularly denomination or faith.

I'm sure almost all of us here on CF would agree there are true and saved believers found within all modern-day Christians denominations and movements. The Christian Church in its entirety has millions of believers that aren't going to agree with the dotting of every "I" or the crossing of every "T", but who have some common ground somewhere in their personal beliefs.

Are we all of us here of the agreement that there are truly saved believers found within nearly all of modern-day Christianity movements?

It may be true that all baptized believers are Christians, and it's nice that we are all getting along better rather than killing each other, but it doesn't excuse the fact that the Church is divided, which is a sin.

 

[bbbbbbb]

It may be true that all baptized believers are Christians, and it's nice that we are all getting along better rather than killing each other, but it doesn't excuse the fact that the Church is divided, which is a sin.

The real question is not whether there is a religious bureaucracy which claims to be the Church and to which everyone assents, but what God sees.

Is God interested in the external intricacies of what mortals consider to be unity or does He unite His body through His Spirit?

 

[Foxfyre]

It may be true that all baptized believers are Christians, and it's nice that we are all getting along better rather than killing each other, but it doesn't excuse the fact that the Church is divided, which is a sin.

I don't think different denominations are a sin--they allow different groups to commune and worship in ways that are comfortable and satisfying to them. Those who love high church can have it, those who want an informal contemporary service can have it, and everything in between. But Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, Anglicans, Catholics, Pentecostal, non denominationals etc. etc. etc. should also be able to worship together joyfully as brethren in Christ.

I do believe it grieves the Spirit when that is not the case.

I grew up in a tiny town in which the three largest Protestant congregations were the Baptists, Methodists, and Church of Christ, all located in a triangle about two blocks apart in the downtown area. The much smaller Presbyterian Church was in the middle of the triangle.

Maybe it wasn't all that Christian, but one of my fondest memories to remember was that the Methodist Church voted to purchase and install electronic chimes in their steeple tower. These were set to chime melodiously at 12 noon and at dinner time and of course before church on Sunday mornings.

Well not to be outdone, the Baptists installed a sound system in their steeple tower that broadcast familiar hymns, which of course prompted the Methodists to crank theirs up a notch. And then the Church of Christ got involved by loudly broadcasting their pastor's sermons.

And the windows were rattling in the poor little Presbyterian church in the middle. (The Catholics were sort of on the edge of town so were watching this with a great deal of amusement.)

Anyway, the issue was resolved with a joint picnic, including the Catholics, and it was good naturedly agreed that the church would take turns at a reasonable volume.

That's how it is supposed to work I think.

 

[Foxfyre]

The real question is not whether there is a religious bureaucracy which claims to be the Church and to which everyone assents, but what God sees.

Is God interested in the external intricacies of what mortals consider to be unity or does He unite His body through His Spirit?

For me we are one in the Spirit and one in the Lord. But though one church, we worship and commune via many different cultures and expressions.

I suspect that when we meet the Lord face to face, we will find that he isn't all that interested in our theology but is much more interested in our relationships with him and with each other.

 

[Open Heart]

I don't think different denominations are a sin--they allow different groups to commune and worship in ways that are comfortable and satisfying to them. Those who love high church can have it, those who want an informal contemporary service can have it, and everything in between. But Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, Anglicans, Catholics, Pentecostal, non denominationals etc. etc. etc. should also be able to worship together joyfully as brethren in Christ.

I do believe it grieves the Spirit when that is not the case.

I grew up in a tiny town in which the three largest Protestant congregations were the Baptists, Methodists, and Church of Christ, all located in a triangle about two blocks apart in the downtown area. The much smaller Presbyterian Church was in the middle of the triangle.

Maybe it wasn't all that Christian, but one of my fondest memories to remember was that the Methodist Church voted to purchase and install electronic chimes in their steeple tower. These were set to chime melodiously at 12 noon and at dinner time and of course before church on Sunday mornings.

Well not to be outdone, the Baptists installed a sound system in their steeple tower that broadcast familiar hymns, which of course prompted the Methodists to crank theirs up a notch. And then the Church of Christ got involved by loudly broadcasting their pastor's sermons.

And the windows were rattling in the poor little Presbyterian church in the middle. (The Catholics were sort of on the edge of town so were watching this with a great deal of amusement.)

Anyway, the issue was resolved with a joint picnic, including the Catholics, and it was good naturedly agreed that the church would take turns at a reasonable volume.

That's how it is supposed to work I think.

God will be please when we can all break bread together.

 

[com7fy8]

Are we all of us here of the agreement that there are truly saved believers found within nearly all of modern-day Christianity movements?

My personal experience and prejudice is that there can be believers in wrong groups, but these can be spiritually and emotionally lacking because of not being fed the example of Biblical leadership.

And, in case they are not in submission to Biblical leaders > Hebrews 13:17 is clear how God expects us to obey the leaders whom He approves. If God trusts a leader, I would say certainly He expects us to trust a qualified leader whom our Father trusts. So, in case someone is saved but is hanging out with a wrong group, this person could be in more or less of disobedience and the spirit of this can effect the person emotionally and in how the person is and is not able to relate in love with various people without getting into problems. The person may not be strong in how Philippians 2:14-16 and Philippians 4:6-7 say to live.

And, for me, 1 Timothy 3:1-10 is clear about who is qualified to take care of God's people. To me, it is apparent that a number of people are taking short-cuts to only education and training and not to how leaders need to grow and mature in learning how to love in marriage and take care of their families > as I understand Paul means needs to be done.

And 1 Peter 5:3 feeds us how leaders need to be >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

But I consider that such qualified men could be mature seniors who are not even ordained, but they are helping to bring up even quite young pastors who can be doing a lot of hard work which our senior and mature people might not be able to do.

But do I believe people can be saved while not obeying this? I think, yes, people can be saved; but they need to mature in Jesus and how Jesus has us becoming obedient with His approved leaders and other mature Christians, so we can with one another grow and mature in His way of loving, including 1 Peter 3:4, Matthew 11:28-30, Ephesians 4:2, Ephesians 4:31-5:2, Colossians 3:15, Colossians 1:28-29.

 

[Open Heart]

He expects us to trust a qualified leader whom our Father trusts.

The problem is in picking a "qualified leader." A person stating they "just teach from the Bible" is not a "qualified leader."

 

[ToBeLoved]

Nearly all yes, but there are some "Christian" groups that I am certain contain no true believers.

Do tell. Which ones are they?

 

[ToBeLoved]

My personal experience and prejudice is that there can be believers in wrong groups, but these can be spiritually and emotionally lacking because of not being fed the example of Biblical leadership.

And, in case they are not in submission to Biblical leaders > Hebrews 13:17 is clear how God expects us to obey the leaders whom He approves. If God trusts a leader, I would say certainly He expects us to trust a qualified leader whom our Father trusts. So, in case someone is saved but is hanging out with a wrong group, this person could be in more or less of disobedience and the spirit of this can effect the person emotionally and in how the person is and is not able to relate in love with various people without getting into problems. The person may not be strong in how Philippians 2:14-16 and Philippians 4:6-7 say to live.

And, for me, 1 Timothy 3:1-10 is clear about who is qualified to take care of God's people. To me, it is apparent that a number of people are taking short-cuts to only education and training and not to how leaders need to grow and mature in learning how to love in marriage and take care of their families > as I understand Paul means needs to be done.

And 1 Peter 5:3 feeds us how leaders need to be >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

But I consider that such qualified men could be mature seniors who are not even ordained, but they are helping to bring up even quite young pastors who can be doing a lot of hard work which our senior and mature people might not be able to do.

But do I believe people can be saved while not obeying this? I think, yes, people can be saved; but they need to mature in Jesus and how Jesus has us becoming obedient with His approved leaders and other mature Christians, so we can with one another grow and mature in His way of loving, including 1 Peter 3:4, Matthew 11:28-30, Ephesians 4:2, Ephesians 4:31-5:2, Colossians 3:15, Colossians 1:28-29.

How do we have any confidence that 'God trusts a leader'?

How do we know who? Whom? Which ones?

 

[Open Heart]

Nearly all yes, but there are some "Christian" groups that I am certain contain no true believers.

Not a single solitary Christian? Do tell us which ones!

 

[bbbbbbb]

The problem is in picking a "qualified leader." A person stating they "just teach from the Bible" is not a "qualified leader."

What criteria do you personally use to determine the qualifications of a Christian leader?

 

[Open Heart]

What criteria do you personally use to determine the qualifications of a Christian leader?

1. Seminary taught
2. Ordained by the laying on of hands by a bishops who is similarly ordained going back in an unbroken chain to the apostles.

 

[bbbbbbb]

1. Seminary taught
2. Ordained by the laying on of hands by a bishops who is similarly ordained going back in an unbroken chain to the apostles.

Those are amazingly simple criteria. If those were the only criteria I can cite innumerable cases of truly corrupt and worthless individuals who meet these criteria.

 

[Open Heart]

Those are amazingly simple criteria. If those were the only criteria I can cite innumerable cases of truly corrupt and worthless individuals who meet these criteria.

Yes, great sinners. But they are qualified to teach.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Yes, great sinners. But they are qualified to teach.

Indeed. That would definitely place the Reformers among the greatest teachers in the Church.

 

[com7fy8]

there are some "Christian" groups that I am certain contain no true believers.

Do tell. Which ones are they?

Not a single solitary Christian? Do tell us which ones!

First, of course, it would be against the rules of these forums, for me to name a group and declare that every member is not a Christian . . . if I understand the rules correctly

My general opinion is that there are groups who have gotten away from the Bible, but they still have members who stay there for the sake of how it used to be, in hopes of returning and/or in hopes of reaching ones they are satisfied are not Christians or ones they feel are but are misled.

By the way . . . I suppose some groups have had only a few individuals who have gotten to the top by political means. But the gentle and humble ones who would not tangle with politics have kept right on with whatever has been right in their groups. The show people do not necessarily represent everybody; one person in the news can hoax people into buying that he or she or that tiny group speaks for all in the group.

Also, there can be a number of pastors who have been Christians and they keep to their Biblical ways wherever they are pastoring. I might have seen some examples of this.

This can happen if a group, publicly showing it is going away from God's word, still has democratic policy that each local church is to choose who will pastor that church.

A church I know had been pastored by someone who was clearly ok with things the Bible says are wrong. Then he left and a number of replacement candidates were considered. One was not ok with what is wrong, but they found him to be a people person, and this meant more so they chose him. And it seems as though he has gotten some number of people to change to follow Christ.

I mean, for one example, a lady seemed to be more into non-Biblical philosophy, but now has been sending me Biblical spiritual messages, plus using my photos in their Sunday bulletin with her Biblical messages.

The thing is that Jesus can do what He wants, anywhere

 

[com7fy8]

How do we have any confidence that 'God trusts a leader'?

How do we know who? Whom? Which ones?

For one thing, the Bible says that in past history God has chosen men whom He trusted to take care of His people. And we can read how it was that the people could know God had chosen those people. Among other things, they might have prophets whom they knew were men of God, and those prophets anointed men whom God trusted. Also, I would say God had the people helping one another to know . . . so they would do things as family.

But how, really, did they know those men were prophets. My personal understanding is that God made people able to know. God is able in us to have us know what He wants us to know. So, I think what works is we trust and submit to God and depend on Him to guide us and enlighten us. With Him we can tell the difference between whom to trust and whom not to, plus how He desires for us to trust each person. This can work in God's love (Philippians 1:9); in God's love we have God's own light to see people right and not go only by show > John 7:24.

Also, by the way, we see what happened with Jewish leaders when they judged by how things were made to look, "but they did not ask counsel of the LORD." (Joshua 9)

And, of course, at times we need to be able to see how a leader is wrong and not go along. An example is Galatians 2:11-13. But once Peter was corrected, yes ones needed to trust him.

And we have the standards for who qualifies just to be considered to take care of God's people > 1 Timothy 3:1-10. But there are character requirements, here, which can not be verified only by noting outward behavior and acting and how one tones one's voice and might be educated and highly regarded by many people. Only with God are we able to discern one's character reliably.

And Jesus does say His sheep know His voice. Not only leaders, but Christ's "sheep" can tell the difference. Jesus in us makes us able to do this > John 10:1-30. My experience is that Jesus gives me sense so I can tell if someone is ministering the effect of God's own love to make me more like Christ and pleasing to our Father and loving and caring for any and all people as myself while sharing as family tenderly with my Jesus brothers and sisters.

And as we get to know God's word and how He has us living His word, this makes us more and more able to see if someone is ministering this or not exactly. I mean not only proper doctrine and educated explanation, but the love meaning > now God's love changes and corrects and cures us to become in our nature, and then do His word better than we can know and choose before how He succeeds > Isaiah 55:11, Philippians 2:13-16.

 

[Open Heart]

A church I know had been pastored by someone who was clearly ok with things the Bible says are wrong.

In cases like this, there are always a remnant who choose to stay and let their light shine in the darkness.