Post-Denominationalism

[Spirit of Pentecost]

As many―if not all―of you probably already know, the attitude and/or idea of Post-Denominationalism is that salvation extends to everyone in the Body of Christ, whether or not they belong to one's particularly denomination or faith.

I'm sure almost all of us here on CF would agree there are true and saved believers found within all modern-day Christians denominations and movements. The Christian Church in its entirety has millions of believers that aren't going to agree with the dotting of every "I" or the crossing of every "T", but who have some common ground somewhere in their personal beliefs.

Are we all of us here of the agreement that there are truly saved believers found within nearly all of modern-day Christianity movements?

 

[ByTheSpirit]

As many―if not all―of you probably already know, the attitude and/or idea of Post-Denominationalism is that salvation extends to everyone in the Body of Christ, whether or not they belong to one's particularly denomination or faith.

I'm sure almost all of us here on CF would agree there are true and saved believers found within all modern-day Christians denominations and movements. The Christian Church in its entirety has millions of believers that aren't going to agree with the dotting of every "I" or the crossing of every "T", but who have some common ground somewhere in their personal beliefs.

Are we all of us here of the agreement that there are truly saved believers found within nearly all of modern-day Christianity movements?

Nearly all yes, but there are some "Christian" groups that I am certain contain no true believers.

 

[Albion]

As many―if not all―of you probably already know, the attitude and/or idea of Post-Denominationalism is that salvation extends to everyone in the Body of Christ, whether or not they belong to one's particularly denomination or faith.

I'm sure almost all of us here on CF would agree there are true and saved believers found within all modern-day Christians denominations and movements. The Christian Church in its entirety has millions of believers that aren't going to agree with the dotting of every "I" or the crossing of every "T", but who have some common ground somewhere in their personal beliefs.

Are we all of us here of the agreement that there are truly saved believers found within nearly all of modern-day Christianity movements?

I would tend to agree. But--

This is hardly a new idea. It's at least as old as the Protestant Reformation.

and

There are going to be limits, no matter where one draws the line. It's basically good to say what you did, but then, what do we do with such as the Mormons who insist that they are Christian and believe in Jesus Christ but have altered almost every fact about him that the rest of us know from the Bible? And that's just one of a number of examples that could be used.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Can I add to my original statement and say there are some groups that truly believe they alone are the true proponents of salvation. I attended an Independent Fundamental Baptist Church growing up and they were so stringent on doctrine that they said any who did not comply with all the doctrine in every aspect was not a true believer. So much so they discouraged marriage and any relationship if not with another "believer" (as they defined it)

 

[Spirit of Pentecost]

I agree that there are certain modern-day Christians movements who have twisted the truths and therefore lack the presence of having "truly saved" believers.

 

[Albion]

So how do we restructure your original statement to account for this?

(see below)

 

[Albion]

Can I add to my original statement and say there are some groups that truly believe they alone are the true proponents of salvation. I attended an Independent Fundamental Baptist Church growing up and they were so stringent on doctrine that they said any who did not comply with all the doctrine in every aspect was not a true believer. So much so they discouraged marriage and any relationship if not with another "believer" (as they defined it)

You are right about this, but we don't have to agree that this church or any other that holds the same POV is correct about it. The idea of post-denominationalism still can be correct, although we're in a tough spot when saying that there are true believers in every denomination. I guess the only way out is to say that there might be--there's no reason that there cannot be--even when dealing with Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons, etc.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

You are right about this, but we don't have to agree that this church or any other that holds the same POV is correct about it. The idea of post-denominationalism still can be correct, although we're in a tough spot when saying that there are true believers in every denomination. I guess the only way out is to say that there might be--there's no reason that there cannot be--even when dealing with Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons, etc.

I only mention it as a matter of fact. I believe there are individuals in that church who will be in Heaven one day. God loves us in spite of the weakness of our faith and doctrine. And really if we were put up to a test, how many of us who get a 100% on matters of faith? I don't think anyone has all doctrine or faith matters down like that. We are all in this together until the day of redemption.

 

[Albion]

I only mention it as a matter of fact. I believe there are I divididos in that church who will be in Heaven one day. God loves us in spite of the weakness of our faith and doctrine. And really if we were put up to a test, how many of us who get a 100% on matters of faith? I don't think anyone has all doctrine or faith matters down like that. We are all in this together until the day of redemption.

Right. I was trying to balance several posts at once there. I think we all basically do agree on post-denominationalism and that it holds up as a concept even while there are denominations that think salvation comes only by membership in their own group.

 

[Foxfyre]

Can I add to my original statement and say there are some groups that truly believe they alone are the true proponents of salvation. I attended an Independent Fundamental Baptist Church growing up and they were so stringent on doctrine that they said any who did not comply with all the doctrine in every aspect was not a true believer. So much so they discouraged marriage and any relationship if not with another "believer" (as they defined it)

This is where it gets difficult in the 'thou shalt not judge' department. I have been a denomination of one for most of my adult life though I do feel the need for and enjoy worshiping and studying with other Christians, most often in the last decade in a non-denominational congregation.

--I have traveled far and wide and worshiped with folks of all the mainstream denominations and quite a few of the more obscure ones and non denominational, and I felt secure in the company of Christians in all. And I have studied all the great religions.

--I think there are truths to be found in all religions while I think God's will is that all have a personal relationship with Him and all be assured of their salvation, redemption, and eternal life. I think that truth is easier to find among Christians than it is elsewhere.

--I don't think there are any hard rules, methods, processes by which that is accomplished--I don't think the Lord cares all that much about our theology or our style of worship but He does care about our relationship with Him. I think some have that relationship with little or no understanding of the words/terms/phrases that describe it. That makes me a heretic to many who insist that I must believe as they do and/or use the language they do or I don't believe at all.

--And I have experienced and witnessed a lot of things bearing the Christian label that I thought to be unChristian. And I have been advised that I am neither Christian nor saved nor in God's grace every now and then.

I tend to feel sorry for some of the doctrinally and legalistically strict who demand that every i be dotted and every t crossed. I have no reason to doubt the sincerity of their faith and I consider them Christian brethren. But they seem to get so little freedom or joy from it. And I fear they sometimes make the Lord so unattractive to the non believer that they figuratively chase people away.

Not sure what the answer for that is.

 

[Postvieww]

As many―if not all―of you probably already know, the attitude and/or idea of Post-Denominationalism is that salvation extends to everyone in the Body of Christ, whether or not they belong to one's particularly denomination or faith.

I'm sure almost all of us here on CF would agree there are true and saved believers found within all modern-day Christians denominations and movements. The Christian Church in its entirety has millions of believers that aren't going to agree with the dotting of every "I" or the crossing of every "T", but who have some common ground somewhere in their personal beliefs.

Are we all of us here of the agreement that there are truly saved believers found within nearly all of modern-day Christianity movements?

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.



I agree with the basic premise of your OP and will add some are saved in spite of error in denominations or churches. I believe God is looking for a sincere heart from those that seek Him. He will purge out the false teaching if one is open to the Holy Spirit and will allow it to happen.

I do not believe there is one fellowship or denomination that has all truth, we all see through a glass darkly and have room to grow. I take those with a grain of salt that claim they have all truth.

 

[Truthfrees]

MOD HAT

moving from the Non-denominational forum to the Denomination Specific forum as per the respective SOPs

 

[Erose]

My 2 cents here.

1) I think that we are in a position that we really can't judge the individual in the faith groups that are on the 'fringes' so to speak of Christianity, as they are only believing that they believe because they have been convinced that what they believe is the truth, by their teachers and preachers; and I don't think one can fault them for that. The same goes with members of other religions as well. How God deals with these people...well that is between God and them.
2) Personally I think that it is more important for the Church that one is a member of get it right, than the individual members of that church, again we are saved by faith, and not knowledge. There are many of Saint in heaven right now, that one would not have considered to be knowledgeable in their faith, but they lived it and that is what matters most.
3) Now concerning the Faith and the Deposit of Faith handed down to us, I do believe it is extremely important to know, as a Church, the full truth and not have it marred by either important absents of salvific knowledge, or wrong understandings of said knowledge. The way I see the Deposit of Faith is that it is a road map of sorts that leads one to heaven. If the road map is accurate and complete it is a lot easier for someone to make the journey and get to the destination; but no matter how accurate the road map is, there will always be folks that don't make it, due to whatever. Now when heresy enters into the picture and an important road is removed from the map, or lets say that road is redrawn to say it leads to here, but leads elsewhere; then getting to your destination becomes harder. Not impossible but harder. So in my opinion, finding the Church that you believe is the true Church and trusting in said Church is important to one's salvation.

 

[Foxfyre]

My 2 cents here.

1) I think that we are in a position that we really can't judge the individual in the faith groups that are on the 'fringes' so to speak of Christianity, as they are only believing that they believe because they have been convinced that what they believe is the truth, by their teachers and preachers; and I don't think one can fault them for that. The same goes with members of other religions as well. How God deals with these people...well that is between God and them.
2) Personally I think that it is more important for the Church that one is a member of get it right, than the individual members of that church, again we are saved by faith, and not knowledge. There are many of Saint in heaven right now, that one would not have considered to be knowledgeable in their faith, but they lived it and that is what matters most.
3) Now concerning the Faith and the Deposit of Faith handed down to us, I do believe it is extremely important to know, as a Church, the full truth and not have it marred by either important absents of salvific knowledge, or wrong understandings of said knowledge. The way I see the Deposit of Faith is that it is a road map of sorts that leads one to heaven. If the road map is accurate and complete it is a lot easier for someone to make the journey and get to the destination; but no matter how accurate the road map is, there will always be folks that don't make it, due to whatever. Now when heresy enters into the picture and an important road is removed from the map, or lets say that road is redrawn to say it leads to here, but leads elsewhere; then getting to your destination becomes harder. Not impossible but harder. So in my opinion, finding the Church that you believe is the true Church and trusting in said Church is important to one's salvation.

I will gently disagree with that a bit. We have so many different denominations including high church, low church, and everything in between, because people thought the church where they were wasn't doing it right. Every new denomination that is started is via a human effort to get it right, or at least more right than everybody else. All start out to be the 'true church'.

But I can find not even a suggestion in the New Testament that the people you worship with are necessary for your salvation. I do believe that the counsel to not neglect meeting with other Christians is very helpful to keep our faith strong and on track.

I will agree that where the Bible is read and the pure gospel is preached, those who do not yet know the Lord have a better chance to be introduced to Him. Those who love the Lord and who God's love shines through them are going to attract folks much more often than will the sour pusses, doom and gloom folks who dangle people over the pit a bit.

The perfect church does not exist, however, because all are made up of sinners of all kinds. But we keep trying to create that perfect church just the same.

 

[Erose]

I will gently disagree with that a bit. We have so many different denominations including high church, low church, and everything in between, because people thought the church where they were wasn't doing it right. Every new denomination that is started is via a human effort to get it right, or at least more right than everybody else. All start out to be the 'true church'.

I agree with your assessment on why there are so many denominations out there. The issue I would say is from what approach we are looking at what Church is. I think that there is a fundamental difference in definition of "Church" between Catholic/Orthodox and Protestant/Evangelical/etc. Also I think that how one approaches looking for a church is also an issue to look at. I think that denominationalism is rooted in people searching for a church that is the image of what they think a church should be like. When they don't find that church "in their own image" this is where a self-motivated individual creates a new denomination. IMO the true right teaching Church is out there, for she was created by Christ. IMO that Church is Catholicism, another may think that it is Anglican, etc. Me personally a person should be out there searching for THE Church, and not the church that teaches what they want to hear, although they might find both in THE Church.

The perfect church does not exist, however, because all are made up of sinners of all kinds. But we keep trying to create that perfect church just the same.

I think that we cannot assess the Church as being perfect from the imperfections of her children. This is one of the issues that St. Augustine faced and helped deal with in his time, where people were trying to determine the validity of Sacraments given by bad priests. The is true with Church. The perfect church isn't a church were every member is perfect and without sin. No, the perfect church is one that teaches the fullness of the Deposit of Faith as given by Christ and holds to the full means of salvation. I think that this part is significant in our approaches here.

As someone else pointed out, all denominations possess a certain amount of the true Deposit of Faith. Some possess more of the true Deposit of Faith than others, and in those salvation will be easier for their members than in those denominations that possess less.

 

[Foxfyre]

I agree with your assessment on why there are so many denominations out there. The issue I would say is from what approach we are looking at what Church is. I think that there is a fundamental difference in definition of "Church" between Catholic/Orthodox and Protestant/Evangelical/etc. Also I think that how one approaches looking for a church is also an issue to look at. I think that denominationalism is rooted in people searching for a church that is the image of what they think a church should be like. When they don't find that church "in their own image" this is where a self-motivated individual creates a new denomination. IMO the true right teaching Church is out there, for she was created by Christ. IMO that Church is Catholicism, another may think that it is Anglican, etc. Me personally a person should be out there searching for THE Church, and not the church that teaches what they want to hear, although they might find both in THE Church.

I think that we cannot assess the Church as being perfect from the imperfections of her children. This is one of the issues that St. Augustine faced and helped deal with in his time, where people were trying to determine the validity of Sacraments given by bad priests. The is true with Church. The perfect church isn't a church were every member is perfect and without sin. No, the perfect church is one that teaches the fullness of the Deposit of Faith as given by Christ and holds to the full means of salvation. I think that this part is significant in our approaches here.

As someone else pointed out, all denominations possess a certain amount of the true Deposit of Faith. Some possess more of the true Deposit of Faith than others, and in those salvation will be easier for their members than in those denominations that possess less.

I have worshiped with Catholics, Anglicans, Episcopalians, Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterians, other mainline Protestant, non denominational, Native Americans Christians, the highest church to the most bare bone service, regal music, drums and guitars, no instrumental music, etc. And in each setting, with extremely few exceptions, I had no problem believing I was worshiping in THE CHURCH.

I respect the beliefs of those who are comforted believing their denomination is THE Church. But for me, I am pretty sure that Christ's church is not what building, label, slogans, creeds, catechisms, rules, rituals, music, etc. are represented in it.

Christ's Church is us. All who love him, worship him, be his representatives on Earth. As he said, "For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them."

 

[Erose]

I have worshiped with Catholics, Anglicans, Episcopalians, Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterians, other mainline Protestant, non denominational, Native Americans Christians, the highest church to the most bare bone service, regal music, drums and guitars, no instrumental music, etc. And in each setting, with extremely few exceptions, I had no problem believing I was worshiping in THE CHURCH.

I respect the beliefs of those who are comforted believing their denomination is THE Church. But for me, I am pretty sure that Christ's church is not what building, label, slogans, creeds, catechisms, rules, rituals, music, etc. are represented in it.

Christ's Church is us. All who love him, worship him, be his representatives on Earth. As he said, "For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them."

Again, it falls into the category of definitions. No doubt that we are all members of the Body of Christ, that isn't what is discussed here. Anyone baptized appropriately becomes a member of the Body of Christ. What is discussed is who possesses the most pure form of the Deposit of Faith given to us by Christ and His Apostles. Like I written above, the Deposit of Faith is the road map given to us by Christ to get to Him. With something as important as eternal salvation, I would prefer to have the best map available, would you not as well?

And to be honest with you I am comforted by the fact that my Church is THE Church established by Christ. That takes out one possible road block towards my salvation. At least I know that what is taught to me is the truth and nothing but.

 

[Foxfyre]

Again, it falls into the category of definitions. No doubt that we are all members of the Body of Christ, that isn't what is discussed here. Anyone baptized appropriately becomes a member of the Body of Christ. What is discussed is who possesses the most pure form of the Deposit of Faith given to us by Christ and His Apostles. Like I written above, the Deposit of Faith is the road map given to us by Christ to get to Him. With something as important as eternal salvation, I would prefer to have the best map available, would you not as well?

And to be honest with you I am comforted by the fact that my Church is THE Church established by Christ. That takes out one possible road block towards my salvation. At least I know that what is taught to me is the truth and nothing but.

I respect that. I also respect all others who think their church is THE Church because for all who know and love the Lord I believe to be THE Church. And after worshiping with so many, I can't believe that any particular congregation or denomination can legitimately claim exclusivity re that. Most of us attend a particular denomination or congregation because it feels right to us. And I don't have a problem with that either. If it feels right to you, then you are most likely where you're supposed to be.

 

[Albion]

Again, it falls into the category of definitions. No doubt that we are all members of the Body of Christ, that isn't what is discussed here. Anyone baptized appropriately becomes a member of the Body of Christ. What is discussed is who possesses the most pure form of the Deposit of Faith given to us by Christ and His Apostles.

Except that it is NOT what you wrote there.

Rather, it is the claim we see below:

And to be honest with you I am comforted by the fact that my Church is THE Church established by Christ.

 

[Postvieww]

If one has truly accepted the atoning sacrifice of Jesus they are a part of the body of Christ and the only church that matters.