LDS possible sources for BOM avilable to JS

[Albion]

Have you read the Spaulding manuscript or the Book of Mormon?

Of course.

 

[He is the way]

Of course.

Then if you have read both you should know that they are NOT that similar. It is very doubtful that Joseph Smith ever saw Spaulding's manuscript as it was never published. Both L. L. Rice and James H. Fairchild, of Oberlin College, where the manuscript was taken after it was found, examined the manuscript, and both of them certified that the manuscript could not have been the source of the Book of Mormon.

 

[Albion]

It's not the Oberlin manuscript to which I was referring. Beyond that, I'd suggest that anyone reading this who is interested in the origins of the BOM check out the Wikipedia entry.

 

[He is the way]

It's not the Oberlin manuscript to which I was referring. Beyond that, I'd suggest that anyone reading this who is interested in the origins of the BOM check out the Wikipedia entry.

Which manuscript are you referring to? Where is it that we can read it?

 

[Ran77]

I'm not here looking for support for Joseph Smith.

Then it's odd that you are here, talking about Joseph Smith.

 

[Ran77]

If you have really done your research you have to know the spaulding man. is not the source.

JS had a 3rd grade education, he did not write well. Even if he used the SM as a source he could not have written such a comprehensive 537 page book about people living in Jerusalem and sailing to the Americas in 590 bc and how they lived and their culture and wars and religion over about a 1000 years. It was impossible for JS to make up this story let alone write it.

Think again.

What I find interesting, is that the writing style is so complex that it precludes anyone other than a masterful author from being the sole person responsible for writing the content and messages within its pages. Definitely, not the work of someone with a third grade education.

 

[Hrairoo]

Then it's odd that you are here, talking about Joseph Smith.

I'm on this forum as a whole to find fellowship and healing with actual Christians. I'm on this subforum specifically to truthfully answer Christians' questions about the cult that stole my life. This isn't a place for support of Joseph Smith. This is a place for Christians to engage their curiosity in your faith and to challenge you with the truth. If YOU came here seeking support for Joseph Smith, then that's what I find truly odd.

If you're referring to my preoccupation with the LDS doctrine even though I left, I think I'm entitled. Learning the truth has been a traumatic experience and I'm still processing and likely will be for a long time. The Mormon church stole 30 years of my life, thousands of dollars from me, and damaged my ability to trust myself and other people. There's nothing you could say that would convince me that my desire to peel back the layers and understand what happened to me is unjustified. And if you tried, it would certainly look very callous and odd to the Christians here after I just described the suffering I have endured because of this cult.

 

[He is the way]

I'm on this forum as a whole to find fellowship and healing with actual Christians. I'm on this subforum specifically to truthfully answer Christians' questions about the cult that stole my life. This isn't a place for support of Joseph Smith. This is a place for Christians to engage their curiosity in your faith and to challenge you with the truth. If YOU came here seeking support for Joseph Smith, then that's what I find truly odd.

If you're referring to my preoccupation with the LDS doctrine even though I left, I think I'm entitled. Learning the truth has been a traumatic experience and I'm still processing and likely will be for a long time. The Mormon church stole 30 years of my life, thousands of dollars from me, and damaged my ability to trust myself and other people. There's nothing you could say that would convince me that my desire to peel back the layers and understand what happened to me is unjustified. And if you tried, it would certainly look very callous and odd to the Christians here after I just described the suffering I have endured because of this cult.

It is important to endure:

(New Testament | Hebrews 12:5 - 11)

5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

(New Testament | Romans 8:16 - 18)

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

I admire Job, he was able to endure his suffering.

 

[Peter1000]

Jesus disagrees with you in Matthew 7:21-23. You should make sure you are "worhipping" the correct Jesus, not the lds version.

How is it that a person could do all these things in the name of Jesus Christ, but Jesus does not recongnize that person, and asks them to depart?

The answer is found in Matthew:
Matthew 16:19 King James Version (KJV)
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

If a person does not have the keys to the kingdom of heaven, the power of binding and loosing, their endeavors on earth will not be bound or loosed in heaven. IOW their works will not be recongized in heaven and by Jesus.

Hence, Jesus will say to them: You have done all these great works in my name, but I did not give you the power or authority to do these things, therefore I do not recongize your works, and I do not know you, depart from me.

A person cannot just wake up one morning and say: I am going to preach the gospel, and start baptizing people in the name of Jesus Christ.
Heaven will not recog nize those baptisms and Jesus will not recognize this person, unless he goes through his recognized lines of authority.

Which brings us to: what church has the recognized power and authority, that when their men baptize (bind a person to Jesus), this baptism is bound (recognized) in heaven. And when their men excomunicate (loose a person from Jesus), this excomunication is bound (recognized) in heaven.

Which church has the true priesthood (keys of the kingdom), which is the power and authority to act for Jesus Christ on the earth today? Most churches (especially protestant, and born again, and evangelical churches) do not even see a need to have the priesthood of Jesus.

The only church that talks about the keys of the kingdom of heaven and the priesthood of Jesus is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is only the Church of Jesus Christ that declares these things. It is only the Church of Jesus Christ that ordaines men with the power and the authority to actually act in the authorized name of Jesus Christ. We will not be asked to depart from him. We have the same power and authority that Jesus gave Peter in the first century, which Peter used to grow and administer the true church of Jesus.

 

[BigDaddy4]

How is it that a person could do all these things in the name of Jesus Christ, but Jesus does not recongnize that person, and asks them to depart?

The answer is found in Matthew:

Mmm, no. Jesus says no such thing to link the 2 scriptures. That's just your [false] religion talking.

The actual link is the section previous to Mat 7:21:23, verses 15-20 which talks about false prophets. THAT is your warning and why you should leave the lds church.

 

[He is the way]

The best source for the Book of Mormon is God.

 

[BigDaddy4]

The best source for the Book of Mormon is God.

The best source for God is not the Book of Mormon.

 

[He is the way]

The best source for God is not the Book of Mormon.

God gave us the Book of Mormon, no one has been able to prove otherwise.

 

[drstevej]

Melph 5:4-11

4. And I promise thee that if ye ask if
this book be not true, and roll a pair of
dice with a sincere heart, and desire
exceedingly for the book to be true,
yea, the dice shall reveal the
truthfulness of this book unto thee.
5. And if ye roll a seven, yea, it doth
mean this book be a true book, and ye
shall rejoice at thy knowledge of the
truthfulness of this book. For no
learned man shall sway thy opinion
with supposed evidences against this
book, for once the dice have spoken
the debate is over.
6. And if ye roll not a seven, yea, fear
not that this book be not true, for this
book is true, yea, even do I promise.
7. And something that is true cannot
be proven untrue. Wherefore, if ye roll
not a seven, it be not the fault of this
book, and it doth prove not that this
book be untrue, because this book is
true, wherefore, it cannot be proven
untrue.
8. Wherefore, if ye roll not a seven it
was an error, and ye must roll the dice
again, yea, even with a more sincere
heart, and even desiring more to know
the truth.
9. And if ye again roll not a seven,
and if ye roll not a seven three times,
yea, it be the fault of the dice.
Wherefore, retrieve different dice, and
roll again.
10. And ye must keep rolling dice
until ye roll seven. And after the
manner in which ye roll a seven,
behold, ye shall rejoice at thy
knowledge of the truthfulness of this
book.

 

[Ran77]

This isn't a place for support of Joseph Smith.

Then you should probably stop talking about him.

This is a place for Christians to engage their curiosity in your faith and to challenge you with the truth.

That would be nice. I'm always looking for truth. As opposed to someone's opinion.

If YOU came here seeking support for Joseph Smith, then that's what I find truly odd.

Not as odd as you possibly thinking that I'm here for the reason you mentioned. Actually, I find the idea rather amusing.

If you're referring to my preoccupation with . . .

I wasn't. Just pointing out the contradictory nature of your statement.

There's nothing you could say that would convince me . . .

Super not interested in trying. You can believe whatever you want.


Welcome to the forum.

 

[Peter1000]

What I find interesting, is that the writing style is so complex that it precludes anyone other than a masterful author from being the sole person responsible for writing the content and messages within its pages. Definitely, not the work of someone with a third grade education.

Which brings us to the point. JS did not write the BOM using any source. He translated he actual source (the gold plates) with the power and authority of God, who is complex and a masterful author.

JS just plainly could not have done it, without the help from God.

 

[Dale]

"for example josiah priests the wonders ofrnature ofnature nature and providence displayed displayed1825 182 18255 contains a potpourri of topics ranging from
natural history and philosophy to religion and literature this work
includes a verbatim extract of all the salient arguments of ethan
smiths thesis of the hebraic origin of the american indians presented in the first edition of his view odthef rhe t rge hebrews 1823 9
the priest volume had already begun to circulate among manchester library patrons by late 1826
the concept of multiple world systems and of inhabitants in celestial orbs a in both time and space was thoroughly discussed in two
manchester library volumes by thomas dick one of the most prolific
advocates of the pluralist doctrine his philosophy of a future state
1829 and the christian philosopher 1823 deal extensively with
the notion that the universe is fully peopled both for the glory of god
and for the pleasure of man these volumes did not begin to circulate however until early 1830 brief extracts from dick s future
state later appeared in the latter day saint messenger andadvocate und a advocate
of december 1836
the geography of souuth america was first chronicled in full detail for european and american readers by the naturalist alexander
von humboldt in hisvs personal personalnarrative narrative of travels to the new
continent 1815 " https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2129&context=byusq

https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V19N02_15.pdf
Inventing Mormonism |

"In 1652 Menasseh Ben Israel's Hope of Israel was published in England. This Jewish rabbi was a firm believer that remnants of the ten tribes of Israel had been discovered in the Americas (Indian Origins and the Book of Mormon, by Dan Vogel, 1986, p. 117, www.signaturebookslibrary.org/indian/preface.htm).

In 1775 James Adair published The History of the American Indians. He theorized that there were twenty-three parallels between Indian and Jewish customs. For example, he claimed the Indians spoke a corrupt form of Hebrew, honored the Jewish Sabbath, performed circumcision, and offered animal sacrifice. He discussed various theories explaining Indian origins, problems of transoceanic crossing, and the theory that the mound builders were a white group more advanced than the Indians (Indian Origins, page 105).

A popular book of Smith's day was View of the Hebrews, by Rev. Ethan Smith, printed in 1823, with a second edition in 1825.

LDS General Authority B. H. Roberts wrote extensively about the parallels between View of the Hebrews and the Book of Mormon (see Studies of the Book of Mormon). Rev. Robert Hullinger gave the following summary of B. H. Robert's parallels:
According to Roberts's later studies, some features of View of the Hebrews are paralleled in the Book of Mormon. (1) Indians buried a book they could no longer read. (2) A Mr. Merrick found some dark yellow parchment leaves in "Indian Hill." (3) Native Americans had inspired prophets and charismatic gifts, as well as (4) their own kind of Urim and Thummim and breastplate. (5) Ethan Smith produced evidence to show that ancient Mexican Indians were no strangers to Egyptian hieroglyphics. (6) An overthrown civilization in America is to be seen from its ruined monuments and forts and mounds. The barbarous tribes—barbarous because they had lost the civilized arts—greeting the Europeans were descendants of the lost civilization. (7) Chapter one of View of the Hebrews is a thirty-two page account of the historical destruction of Jerusalem. (8) There are many references to Israel's scattering and being "gathered" in the last days. (9) Isaiah is quoted for twenty chapters to demonstrate the restoration of Israel. In Isaiah 18 a request is made to save Israel in America. (10) The United States is asked to evangelize the native Americans. (11) Ethan Smith cited Humboldt's New Spain to show the characteristics of Central American civilization; the same are in the Book of Mormon. (12) The legends of Quetzacoatl, the Mexican messiah, are paralleled in the Book of Mormon by Christ's appearing in the western hemisphere. . . . Roberts came to recognize that, at least in the case of Ethan Smith's book, such works were widely available (Joseph Smith's Response to Skepticism, by Robert N. Hullinger, Signature, 1992, pp. 183-184).
For more information the similarities between the Book of Mormon and View of the Hebrews, see Joseph Smith and the Origins of the Book of Mormon, by David Persuitte.
Contrary to the above statement, the New England area abounded in literature speculating on the origin of the American Indian. In Smith's neighborhood there was a library, bookstore and newspapers.

Both Palmyra and Manchester had a lending library. Even though there is no evidence that Joseph Smith borrowed from the Manchester library, he could have used the Palmyra library. There were also plenty of other sources for information. Robert Paul, writing for the BYU Studies, observed:

Moreover, if Joseph had wished to explore the literary materials of the day, it would have been unnecessary to travel the five miles to Manchester when in Palmyra, only two miles distant, there were several bookstores and at least one library, the contents of which he would have been free to peruse. . . . As early as 1819, and occasionally thereafter, book auctions were held in Palmyra. . . . The availability of bookstores and libraries in Palmyra, together with the fact that the Smith family regularly obtained the Palmyra Register and later the Wayne Sentinel from the newspaper office which doubled as a bookstore, would have mitigated the need to travel nearly three times the distance to acquire literary materials from the Manchester area (BYU Studies, Summer 1982, p. 340).

Robert Hullinger commented on the popularity of View of the Hebrews:

View of the Hebrews circulated widely in New York. It was also condensed in Josiah Priest's The Wonders of Nature and Providence, one of the more widely circulated books of the Manchester rental library in 1827 (Joseph Smith's Response to Skepticism, p. 186).

The local newspapers occasionally ran stories about the Indians. The Palmyra Register for May 26, 1819, reported that one writer

believes (and we think with good reason) that this country was once inhabited by a race of people, at least, partially civilized, & that this race has been exterminated by the forefathers of the present and late tribes of Indians in this country (Palmyra Register, May 26, 1819).

Furthermore, the following was published in the Smith's local newspaper, the Wayne Sentinel, in 1825:

Those who are most conversant with the public and private economy of the Indians, are strongly of opinion that they are the lineal descendants of the Israelites, and my own researches go far to confirm me in the same belief (Wayne Sentinel, October 11, 1825).

The Book of Mormon parallels the views of Smith's day; it does not parallel archaeologists' findings today. This is one of the areas which demonstrate that the Book of Mormon was written in the 1820's, not 600 B.C. to 421 A.D."
Issue 107 - Salt Lake City Messenger

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2129&context=byusq
https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V46N03_412b.pdf
https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V19N02_15.pdf
Inventing Mormonism |
https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2129&context=byusq
https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V46N03_412b.pdf
Issue 107 - Salt Lake City Messenger
https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V19N02_15.pdf
https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2129&context=byusq
https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V46N03_412b.pdf
Issue 103 - Salt Lake City Messenger
Issue 105 - Salt Lake City Messenger
http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/pdfnewsletters/134saltlakecitymessenger.pdf
Issue 114 - Salt Lake City Messenger
Where Did Joseph Smith Get His Ideas for the Book of Mormon?

Daniel, I’ll try to give a different answer to the question in the title.

Are you familiar with Emmanuel Swedenborg?

As a child, the only thing I knew about Joseph Smith and LDS is what my father told me. He said that they don’t believe that Jesus will return, that Jesus had already “returned” in a dream given to Joseph Smith. My Dad was wrong, he seems to have confused Joseph Smith with Emmanuel Swedenborg. But there are some striking similarities, as well as glaring differences.

Swedenborg taught that there are three levels in heaven. Joseph Smith taught that there are three levels in heaven. Swedenborg taught there is marriage in heaven, and that people do real work in heaven. (Apparently they enjoy the work they do there.) I hardly need to mention that JS believed there is marriage in heaven. Swedenborg is more generous to those who haven’t found marital happiness in this world. He taught that you can be single on earth, then go to heaven and find your ideal mate there and live happily for eternity. Or, you can be married, go to heaven, and then find a better mate than you had on earth. Swedenborg definitely did not teach multiple wives.

The life of Emmanuel Swedenborg (1688-1772): Swedenborg was from a prominent family in Sweden and a serious scientist with real accomplishments for much of his life. When he was 56, he abandoned these pursuits and became a religious visionary. His religious writings are voluminous, much more so than some of his casual critics think. He claimed to interpret the Bible but his interpretations only make sense if you believe in his visions.

Are Swedenborgians Christians? Unfortunately, the answer seems to be no, although they are rather harmless compared to most sects beyond the boundaries of Christianity.

Swedenborg’s attitude toward the Trinity is a problem. He was a modalist: God acts as Father, God acts as Son, God acts as Holy Spirit. Thus, he failed to affirm the Trinity. Worse, he accused Christians of worshiping three separate Gods in the Trinity.

Swedenborg did not believe in a physical resurrection of Jesus Christ. He regarded the post-crucifixion appearances as spirit appearances. Likewise, he did not believe that Christ would physically return, so to Swedenborgians there is no Second Coming or Final Judgment in the usual sense. The visions of Swedenborg were the Second Coming. The Swedenborgian view of hell is very mild. Apparently those who go there wind up living in a hut in the desert in the afterlife.

The Swedenborgian Church, or the New Church, was not founded in Swedenborg’s lifetime. The New Church arose in England some decades after his death. I believe there are three churches of Swedenborgians today.

Swedenborg was widely read in the 19th century, particularly his most popular book, Heaven and Hell. In a story called Captain Stormfield’s Visit to Heaven, Mark Twain either showed the influence of Swedenborg or maybe he was ridiculing it. The high points of Swedenborg’s views were widely known.

Swedenborg’s belief that there will be marriage in heaven, a heaven with three levels, the de-emphasis on hell, and the importance given to religious visions are all things Emmanuel Swedenborg has in common with Joseph Smith. Despite the importance given to the heavenly visions of the founder, modern Swedenborgians are not encouraged to have visions of their own.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Which brings us to the point. JS did not write the BOM using any source. He translated he actual source (the gold plates) with the power and authority of God, who is complex and a masterful author.

JS just plainly could not have done it, without the help from God.

Since, the gold plates are not on earth and to my knowledge they wrote on mauscripts like everyone else back then.
https://www.history.com/news/4000-year-old-egyptian-manuscript-found
Now available online: ancient Egyptian manuscripts | Princeton University Library
Behind the Hieroglyphs: Material Evidence of Ancient Egyptian Texts
Ancient manuscript pieced together after Cairo Museum find

"The ancient Egyptians used the distinctive script known today as hieroglyphs (Greek for "sacred words") for almost 4,000 years. Hieroglyphs were written on papyrus, carved in stone on tomb and temple walls, and used to decorate many objects of cultic and daily life use." WRITING - Scribes, Hieroglyphs, and Papyri - A New Look at Ancient Egypt @ UPMAA.

use of gold, https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/egold/hd_egold.htm

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Daniel, I’ll try to give a different answer to the question in the title.

Are you familiar with Emmanuel Swedenborg?

As a child, the only thing I knew about Joseph Smith and LDS is what my father told me. He said that they don’t believe that Jesus will return, that Jesus had already “returned” in a dream given to Joseph Smith. My Dad was wrong, he seems to have confused Joseph Smith with Emmanuel Swedenborg. But there are some striking similarities, as well as glaring differences.

Swedenborg taught that there are three levels in heaven. Joseph Smith taught that there are three levels in heaven. Swedenborg taught there is marriage in heaven, and that people do real work in heaven. (Apparently they enjoy the work they do there.) I hardly need to mention that JS believed there is marriage in heaven. Swedenborg is more generous to those who haven’t found marital happiness in this world. He taught that you can be single on earth, then go to heaven and find your ideal mate there and live happily for eternity. Or, you can be married, go to heaven, and then find a better mate than you had on earth. Swedenborg definitely did not teach multiple wives.

The life of Emmanuel Swedenborg (1688-1772): Swedenborg was from a prominent family in Sweden and a serious scientist with real accomplishments for much of his life. When he was 56, he abandoned these pursuits and became a religious visionary. His religious writings are voluminous, much more so than some of his casual critics think. He claimed to interpret the Bible but his interpretations only make sense if you believe in his visions.

Are Swedenborgians Christians? Unfortunately, the answer seems to be no, although they are rather harmless compared to most sects beyond the boundaries of Christianity.

Swedenborg’s attitude toward the Trinity is a problem. He was a modalist: God acts as Father, God acts as Son, God acts as Holy Spirit. Thus, he failed to affirm the Trinity. Worse, he accused Christians of worshiping three separate Gods in the Trinity.

Swedenborg did not believe in a physical resurrection of Jesus Christ. He regarded the post-crucifixion appearances as spirit appearances. Likewise, he did not believe that Christ would physically return, so to Swedenborgians there is no Second Coming or Final Judgment in the usual sense. The visions of Swedenborg were the Second Coming. The Swedenborgian view of hell is very mild. Apparently those who go there wind up living in a hut in the desert in the afterlife.

The Swedenborgian Church, or the New Church, was not founded in Swedenborg’s lifetime. The New Church arose in England some decades after his death. I believe there are three churches of Swedenborgians today.

Swedenborg was widely read in the 19th century, particularly his most popular book, Heaven and Hell. In a story called Captain Stormfield’s Visit to Heaven, Mark Twain either showed the influence of Swedenborg or maybe he was ridiculing it. The high points of Swedenborg’s views were widely known.

Swedenborg’s belief that there will be marriage in heaven, a heaven with three levels, the de-emphasis on hell, and the importance given to religious visions are all things Emmanuel Swedenborg has in common with Joseph Smith. Despite the importance given to the heavenly visions of the founder, modern Swedenborgians are not encouraged to have visions of their own.

I have heard of him before. Some of the material is new to me.

I politely disagree about him being harmless. Any gospel that leads a person away from the True Gospel of Christ Jesus is dangerous because it keeps people from going to Heaven.

Thank You friend for your input,
Daniel Marsh

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Then if you have read both you should know that they are NOT that similar. It is very doubtful that Joseph Smith ever saw Spaulding's manuscript as it was never published. Both L. L. Rice and James H. Fairchild, of Oberlin College, where the manuscript was taken after it was found, examined the manuscript, and both of them certified that the manuscript could not have been the source of the Book of Mormon.

#39 Messenger, Honesty with Mormons on Spalding

• #61 Messenger, Spalding-Rigdon Scare

• Bancroft's History of Utah (Contents): Spaulding, Rev. S., fictitious hist. by, 60-2; The Manuscript Found, 60.

• Solomon Spalding Theory (The)

• Tracking the White Salamander, Spalding-Rigdon Scare

• Tracking the White Salamander, Spalding Document and 116 Missing Pages

• Utah Lighthouse Ministry: Topical Index A-G