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Featured LDS possible sources for BOM avilable to JS

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by Daniel Marsh, Sep 3, 2020.

  1. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    "for example josiah priests the wonders ofrnature ofnature nature and providence displayed displayed1825 182 18255 contains a potpourri of topics ranging from
    natural history and philosophy to religion and literature this work
    includes a verbatim extract of all the salient arguments of ethan
    smiths thesis of the hebraic origin of the american indians presented in the first edition of his view odthef rhe t rge hebrews 1823 9
    the priest volume had already begun to circulate among manchester library patrons by late 1826
    the concept of multiple world systems and of inhabitants in celestial orbs a in both time and space was thoroughly discussed in two
    manchester library volumes by thomas dick one of the most prolific
    advocates of the pluralist doctrine his philosophy of a future state
    1829 and the christian philosopher 1823 deal extensively with
    the notion that the universe is fully peopled both for the glory of god
    and for the pleasure of man these volumes did not begin to circulate however until early 1830 brief extracts from dick s future
    state later appeared in the latter day saint messenger andadvocate und a advocate
    of december 1836
    the geography of souuth america was first chronicled in full detail for european and american readers by the naturalist alexander
    von humboldt in hisvs personal personalnarrative narrative of travels to the new
    continent 1815 " https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2129&context=byusq

    https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V19N02_15.pdf
    Inventing Mormonism |

    "In 1652 Menasseh Ben Israel's Hope of Israel was published in England. This Jewish rabbi was a firm believer that remnants of the ten tribes of Israel had been discovered in the Americas (Indian Origins and the Book of Mormon, by Dan Vogel, 1986, p. 117, www.signaturebookslibrary.org/indian/preface.htm).

    In 1775 James Adair published The History of the American Indians. He theorized that there were twenty-three parallels between Indian and Jewish customs. For example, he claimed the Indians spoke a corrupt form of Hebrew, honored the Jewish Sabbath, performed circumcision, and offered animal sacrifice. He discussed various theories explaining Indian origins, problems of transoceanic crossing, and the theory that the mound builders were a white group more advanced than the Indians (Indian Origins, page 105).

    A popular book of Smith's day was View of the Hebrews, by Rev. Ethan Smith, printed in 1823, with a second edition in 1825.

    LDS General Authority B. H. Roberts wrote extensively about the parallels between View of the Hebrews and the Book of Mormon (see Studies of the Book of Mormon). Rev. Robert Hullinger gave the following summary of B. H. Robert's parallels:
    According to Roberts's later studies, some features of View of the Hebrews are paralleled in the Book of Mormon. (1) Indians buried a book they could no longer read. (2) A Mr. Merrick found some dark yellow parchment leaves in "Indian Hill." (3) Native Americans had inspired prophets and charismatic gifts, as well as (4) their own kind of Urim and Thummim and breastplate. (5) Ethan Smith produced evidence to show that ancient Mexican Indians were no strangers to Egyptian hieroglyphics. (6) An overthrown civilization in America is to be seen from its ruined monuments and forts and mounds. The barbarous tribes—barbarous because they had lost the civilized arts—greeting the Europeans were descendants of the lost civilization. (7) Chapter one of View of the Hebrews is a thirty-two page account of the historical destruction of Jerusalem. (8) There are many references to Israel's scattering and being "gathered" in the last days. (9) Isaiah is quoted for twenty chapters to demonstrate the restoration of Israel. In Isaiah 18 a request is made to save Israel in America. (10) The United States is asked to evangelize the native Americans. (11) Ethan Smith cited Humboldt's New Spain to show the characteristics of Central American civilization; the same are in the Book of Mormon. (12) The legends of Quetzacoatl, the Mexican messiah, are paralleled in the Book of Mormon by Christ's appearing in the western hemisphere. . . . Roberts came to recognize that, at least in the case of Ethan Smith's book, such works were widely available (Joseph Smith's Response to Skepticism, by Robert N. Hullinger, Signature, 1992, pp. 183-184).
    For more information the similarities between the Book of Mormon and View of the Hebrews, see Joseph Smith and the Origins of the Book of Mormon, by David Persuitte.
    Contrary to the above statement, the New England area abounded in literature speculating on the origin of the American Indian. In Smith's neighborhood there was a library, bookstore and newspapers.

    Both Palmyra and Manchester had a lending library. Even though there is no evidence that Joseph Smith borrowed from the Manchester library, he could have used the Palmyra library. There were also plenty of other sources for information. Robert Paul, writing for the BYU Studies, observed:

    Moreover, if Joseph had wished to explore the literary materials of the day, it would have been unnecessary to travel the five miles to Manchester when in Palmyra, only two miles distant, there were several bookstores and at least one library, the contents of which he would have been free to peruse. . . . As early as 1819, and occasionally thereafter, book auctions were held in Palmyra. . . . The availability of bookstores and libraries in Palmyra, together with the fact that the Smith family regularly obtained the Palmyra Register and later the Wayne Sentinel from the newspaper office which doubled as a bookstore, would have mitigated the need to travel nearly three times the distance to acquire literary materials from the Manchester area (BYU Studies, Summer 1982, p. 340).

    Robert Hullinger commented on the popularity of View of the Hebrews:

    View of the Hebrews circulated widely in New York. It was also condensed in Josiah Priest's The Wonders of Nature and Providence, one of the more widely circulated books of the Manchester rental library in 1827 (Joseph Smith's Response to Skepticism, p. 186).

    The local newspapers occasionally ran stories about the Indians. The Palmyra Register for May 26, 1819, reported that one writer

    believes (and we think with good reason) that this country was once inhabited by a race of people, at least, partially civilized, & that this race has been exterminated by the forefathers of the present and late tribes of Indians in this country (Palmyra Register, May 26, 1819).

    Furthermore, the following was published in the Smith's local newspaper, the Wayne Sentinel, in 1825:

    Those who are most conversant with the public and private economy of the Indians, are strongly of opinion that they are the lineal descendants of the Israelites, and my own researches go far to confirm me in the same belief (Wayne Sentinel, October 11, 1825).

    The Book of Mormon parallels the views of Smith's day; it does not parallel archaeologists' findings today. This is one of the areas which demonstrate that the Book of Mormon was written in the 1820's, not 600 B.C. to 421 A.D."
    Issue 107 - Salt Lake City Messenger

    https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2129&context=byusq
    https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V46N03_412b.pdf
    https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V19N02_15.pdf
    Inventing Mormonism |
    https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2129&context=byusq
    https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V46N03_412b.pdf
    Issue 107 - Salt Lake City Messenger
    https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V19N02_15.pdf
    https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2129&context=byusq
    https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V46N03_412b.pdf
    Issue 103 - Salt Lake City Messenger
    Issue 105 - Salt Lake City Messenger
    http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/pdfnewsletters/134saltlakecitymessenger.pdf
    Issue 114 - Salt Lake City Messenger
    Where Did Joseph Smith Get His Ideas for the Book of Mormon?
     
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  2. Hrairoo

    Hrairoo Prayerfully Searching

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    Brilliant. Dan Vogel is one of my favorites and he's done a lot of research and quotes with sources.

    It should also be noted that Ethan Smith was a pastor in Vermont at the same time Oliver Cowdery(Joseph Smith's scribe for the BoM) was living there and E.Smith often wrote sermons regarding the origins of the Native Americans.
     
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  3. JackRT

    JackRT Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thank you so much for that information. I have long been vaguely aware that there was much speculation about the origins of the indigenous peoples of the Americas 200 and more years ago and this has led me to seriously question the Book of Mormon. Which leads me to ask as to whether the book was written deliberately as a "holy book" or as a historical speculation or even as a novel.
     
  4. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Based on the seer stone in a hat, I think it was written as a con game that became a religion when Joseph Smith saw that he could get laid by multiple women. I forget how many wives he had, but it was a bunch.
     
  5. Hrairoo

    Hrairoo Prayerfully Searching

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    Agree with this 100%. And he had 34 wives. A couple sister and mother-daughter pairs, 7 of them under the age of 18(the typical marrying age for women at the time was 21), one of which was just 14, and 11 of the women were still married to other men.
     
  6. Ironhold

    Ironhold Member

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    You might want to re-format the OP, as it's barely legible on my end. The entire first section includes multiple words and numbers that are repeated.
     
  7. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    2 Peter 2
    1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

    2 Timothy 4:3-4 ESV / 410 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
    For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

    Jude 1:4 ESV / 316 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
    For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

    Jude 1:8 ESV / 156 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
    Yet in like manner these people also, relying on their dreams, defile the flesh, reject authority, and blaspheme the glorious ones.

    1 Timothy 6:3-5 ESV / 114 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
    If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.
     
  8. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    At the bottom of the OP those are links to sources that documents other related materials..
     
  9. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Did he have sex with the 11 married women? Did he marry them for time (which is while they were alive on earth, or did he marry them for eternity (which means they were with him once they died on earth).

    It was not unusual in rural areas in the 1800's for older men to marry even 12 year olds. JS did marry a 13 year old and her father was at the marriage. The question is: did JS marry this young girl for time and eternity, or just for eternity? If he married her for just eternity, he would not have consumated the marriage and would have not had anything sexual to do with her while she lived on earth. He married her for eternity only. Were you aware of these nuances?

    There are many unusual nuances in JS plural marriages that throw a different light on what you might consider a problem.
     
  10. Hrairoo

    Hrairoo Prayerfully Searching

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    [STAFF EDITED DELETED QUOTE]

    I'm not here looking for support for Joseph Smith. I'm here on these forums looking for support for Jesus Christ.

    You're making a lot of assumptions about me and how my search for truth has been conducted. I've tried to explain it to you specifically but you seem to want to treat me like a child, counseling me on sources I should use, trying to guilt me and manipulate me to return to the brainwashing. I have my own ideas and I've felt the Spirit while reading the New Testament. If you have some reasoned points to make, then do it. If it's something new that I haven't heard before, I'll look into it with my own research and prayer. Please stop trying to reconvert me with emotional appeals.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 14, 2020
  11. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Usually, a con of this magnitude falls apart if all parties don't get rich. Which none did after many years.

    The normal con would be up if one of the conmen threw out the other cons involved and divested their interest all to himself. The main men were JS, Oliver Cowdry, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris. JS eventually excommunicated the other 3 from the church. This action, if it were a con, would have unravelled the con as the other men would have given up and reported the con in a book or newpaper or any number of ways. But none of them did. In fact to their dying days, they would not recant the supposed con. To their dying days they testify that they saw and hefted the golden plates, shown them by an angel of God, and would not give up JS to the wolves. It was not a con. These men were not conmen.
     
  12. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    But the day after their dying day ... THAT is the rude awakening. Temple garments don't help much in the Lake of Fire.

    Repent NOW!
     
  13. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Very few people will be thrown into a lake of fire, especially one that believes in Jesus Christ and has confessed his name. According to you, one only has to believe in Jesus and confess his name and that person will be saved in his kingdom.

    All of these 4 men did that many many times, and died with the name of Jesus on their lips. So according to you, no worry.
     
  14. BigDaddy4

    BigDaddy4 Movin' on...

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    Your "prophets" have admitted the lds worship a different Christ (JS, BY, Hinckley). The Bible warns of false prophets and false Christs, and following them will not get you into the kingdom of heaven.
     
  15. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Two points. First, the early 19th century was the heyday of Romanticism, and all ancient peoples were studied, lauded, speculated on, and copied. It isn't just a Mormon thing, but it makes the BOM a natural.

    Second, the book is most likely the Spaulding manuscript or closely derived from it. There is too much that points in that direction for the origin of the BOM to be anything else.
     
  16. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    If you have really done your research you have to know the spaulding man. is not the source.

    JS had a 3rd grade education, he did not write well. Even if he used the SM as a source he could not have written such a comprehensive 537 page book about people living in Jerusalem and sailing to the Americas in 590 bc and how they lived and their culture and wars and religion over about a 1000 years. It was impossible for JS to make up this story let alone write it.

    Think again.
     
  17. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, they did say that we worship a different Christ, but there are not 2 Jesus's. There is only 1, and we may worship him differently.

    The bible does not say: If you believe in Jesus (oh BTW it has to be the Jesus of BigDaddy4) then you will be saved. Jesus knew his name and doctrine would be muddled up by doctors of religion, and so he has made a way for us all to learn the true Jesus, and so you have your belief system about him, and you go about to worship him in your way. I have my belief system about Jesus, and I go about worhipping him in my way. We both believe in Jesus, although differently. But we both are good people working for the salvation of souls and one day we will be one in Jesus.
     
  18. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    "My research" suggests this as the most likely answer. That doesn't mean it was carried over word for word.

    For the Spaulding manuscript theory to be correct, it does not require Smith to have written the BOM. In fact, it's the opposite.

    I agree, but none of that refutes the idea that the source was the Spaulding manuscript.
     
  19. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    Have you read the Spaulding manuscript or the Book of Mormon?
     
  20. BigDaddy4

    BigDaddy4 Movin' on...

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    Jesus disagrees with you in Matthew 7:21-23. You should make sure you are "worhipping" the correct Jesus, not the lds version.
     
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