Possible ET?

[Shemjaza]

You seem to be operating under the assumption that they would be benign. What if it ends up being more War of the Worlds rather than Star Trek?

Interstellar war isn't really feasible between neighbouring star systems.

1500 light years is a very long way to travel for to take anything they already have in near infinite supply.

 

[USincognito]

Therein lies the bigger problem. Where do we get all that stuff? Certainly not from jupiter. Think of the energy needed to lift that much mass out of those gravity wells. Other nerds have already calculated such things, and we are looking at 2⨉10^36 J to get jupiter dismantled. That would require harnessing the total energy output of the sun for 100 years. So even if we were building a 100% efficient dyson sphere, the payback on the investment is going to be a century. That isn't even counting the energy to change the orbit to where you want.

Mantrid drones.

 

[daleksteve]

By 'people like me' I presume you mean atheists, because you don't know much more about me than that. Seems like rather a sweeping generalization... and I always thought the popular media were quite keen to publish that kind of thing.

But anyhow, I can't say I recall seeing anything significant recently, let alone dismissing it. I did spend some time a few years back looking into the more popular reports - Roswell, Rendlesham, Eglin AFB, Tehran 1976, the Phoenix lights, some of the NASA mission films, etc.

I'm curious - can you post some links to what you feel is the best recent evidence you know of?

By 'people like me' I presume you mean atheists, because you don't know much more about me than that. Seems like rather a sweeping generalization... and I always thought the popular media were quite keen to publish that kind of thing.

That's not was i was implying. You appear to be very skeptical about the existence of Alien life.

Skeptics do nothing but ridicule and pass everything that contradicts their view as a hoax.

 

[daleksteve]

It's not a good candidate star system for a species to develop in, so it isn't a good candidate for a species' first Dyson Swarm. If it's not their first we'd seed more of them in nearby space.

Astronomers have already found a second so called Dyson Star...EPIC 204278916

If this is to do with Alien life then i think we are looking at a species who is expanding its civilsation across star systems.

 

[Shemjaza]

Astronomers have already found a second so called Dyson Star...EPIC 204278916

If this is to do with Alien life then i think we are looking at a species who is expanding its civilsation across star systems.

Except those two stars are nowhere near each other and EPIC is a very, very young star still surrounded by giant clouds of gas and dust.

Also neither resembles a completed Dyson swarm. And we've seen none in the nights sky.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

You appear to be very skeptical about the existence of Alien life.

Not at all - I think alien life is near-as-dammit a certainty on some of the trillions of planets out there; I think other intelligent life is probable; I'm skeptical that space-travelling aliens have visited the Earth.

Skeptics do nothing but ridicule and pass everything that contradicts their view as a hoax.

There are certainly skeptics that do that, just as there are Christians that don't turn the other cheek, but skepticism is about questioning and doubt, typically asking for evidence before accepting claims that are not mundane.

To quote Hume, "In our reasonings concerning matter of fact, there are all imaginable degrees of assurance, from the highest certainty to the lowest species of moral evidence. A wise man, therefore, proportions his belief to the evidence."

I was serious about being curious about the results of your years of research - can you post some links to what you feel is the best recent evidence you know of (and, if you have time, the reasons you find them particularly compelling) ?

 

[daleksteve]

Not at all - I think alien life is near-as-dammit a certainty on some of the trillions of planets out there; I think other intelligent life is probable; I'm skeptical that space-travelling aliens have visited the Earth.

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I don't why you feel the need to be skeptical. There is so much that can be gained from historical documents. The evidence that Aliens visit earth now is very compelling in places, Astronauts, military people, people who have worked for governments etc have all made claims that Aliens exist and have visited earth.

What has not helped is this stupid and incorrect modern thinking that Ufo's and Aliens is a modern phenomenon resulting from Roswell Incident.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I don't why you feel the need to be skeptical. There is so much that can be gained from historical documents. The evidence that Aliens visit earth now is very compelling in places, Astronauts, military people, people who have worked for governments etc have all made claims that Aliens exist and have visited earth.

What has not helped is this stupid and incorrect modern thinking that Ufo's and Aliens is a modern phenomenon resulting from Roswell Incident.

Part of the reason I'm skeptical is that I've not seen any plausible evidence for it, having spent some time looking at some of the better known reports. It also seems very unlikely, given the vast distances between stars, the physical limitations of travel in space, and the cosmologically very short time that intelligent life has been on Earth.

Another reason is that when I encounter people who claim to have done years of research, and say that there is lots of convincing evidence, and I ask them to give me references for a few of what they feel are the best examples, I seem to just get hand-waving by way of a response.

Third time lucky:

Please can you post some links to what you feel is the best recent evidence you know of (and, if you have time, the reasons you find them particularly compelling) ?

 

[Strathos]

Interstellar war isn't really feasible between neighbouring star systems.

1500 light years is a very long way to travel for to take anything they already have in near infinite supply.

RKKVs are a thing.

 

[Shemjaza]

RKKVs are a thing.

Point taken, I spoke poorly.

War in the sense of ability to kill each other is possible, but war in sense of taking territory or resources isn't really. Most of the motivators for war don't really apply over the distance in space and time.

It's certainly possible for hypothetical aliens to build a weapon to kill us, but you would need some weird motivations.

 

[CrystalDragon]

Part of the reason I'm skeptical is that I've not seen any plausible evidence for it, having spent some time looking at some of the better known reports. It also seems very unlikely, given the vast distances between stars, the physical limitations of travel in space, and the cosmologically very short time that intelligent life has been on Earth.

Another reason is that when I encounter people who claim to have done years of research, and say that there is lots of convincing evidence, and I ask them to give me references for a few of what they feel are the best examples, I seem to just get hand-waving by way of a response.

Third time lucky:

Please can you post some links to what you feel is the best recent evidence you know of (and, if you have time, the reasons you find them particularly compelling) ?

While there may be physical imitations of travel in space as we currently have it, if we assume wormholes exist, then a civilization that's advanced enough could use wormholes to travel, or even create wormholes of their own.

Just a possibility.

 

[Strathos]

Point taken, I spoke poorly.

War in the sense of ability to kill each other is possible, but war in sense of taking territory or resources isn't really. Most of the motivators for war don't really apply over the distance in space and time.

It's certainly possible for hypothetical aliens to build a weapon to kill us, but you would need some weird motivations.

If they assume everyone else thinks like them, they might do it just so we don't end up doing it to them first.

 

[Shemjaza]

If they assume everyone else thinks like them, they might do it just so we don't end up doing it to them first.

I'm not going to say it's impossible, but your idea proposes: What if they are practical and cooperative enough to have advanced space technology and resources to throw away on frivolous space missions... AND paranoid and callous enough to want to wipe out whole planets on the off chance that we are the same... but not spread out enough to survive one planet strike.

It's a weird series of requirements.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

While there may be physical imitations of travel in space as we currently have it, if we assume wormholes exist, then a civilization that's advanced enough could use wormholes to travel, or even create wormholes of their own.

Just a possibility.

It seems remote a remote possibility - GR allows them (despite their implications for causality), but assuming quantum effects don't interfere, you need a usable source of negative energy to keep them open long enough for something to pass through. The only feasible source I'm aware of is the Casimir Effect of the wormhole itself - which means a very narrow wormhole, and it would need to be fairly long to stay stable. You could only get a beam of light through such a narrow tube...

There are so many unlikely uncertainties, it all seems a bit far-fetched at present.

 

[CrystalDragon]

It seems remote a remote possibility - GR allows them (despite their implications for causality), but assuming quantum effects don't interfere, you need a usable source of negative energy to keep them open long enough for something to pass through. The only feasible source I'm aware of is the Casimir Effect of the wormhole itself - which means a very narrow wormhole, and it would need to be fairly long to stay stable. You could only get a beam of light through such a narrow tube...

There are so many unlikely uncertainties, it all seems a bit far-fetched at present.

True, I agree that with what we currently know it doesn't seem all that feasable, though that's with our current technology. A civilization, benign or not, capable of quick interstellar travel would have to be far ahead of our own, and in all likelihood would have figured out some sort of way to bypass the current limitations that our knowledge is wrestling with.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

A civilization, benign or not, capable of quick interstellar travel would have to be far ahead of our own, and in all likelihood would have figured out some sort of way to bypass the current limitations that our knowledge is wrestling with.

That's begging the question - a civilization capable of breaking the laws of physics as we know them would, by definition, have figured out a way to break the laws of physics as we know them...

The same is true for a civilization capable of anything we consider impossible, and is no justification for thinking such a civilization exists or that anything impossible is possible.

 

[Radrook]

If all these speculations, efforts and expectations depend on abiogenesis followed by evolution then SETI is totally wasting its time.

 

[AV1611VET]

But, let's assume for a second that we are looking at a civilisation that exists on a scale that it's buildings black out their sun, what would we really have to say to them?

You mean like other than, "Hello"?

How primitive we would seem.

They build buildings that black [sic] out their sun, and we're the primitive ones!?

 

[Radrook]

You mean like other than, "Hello"?They build buildings that black [sic] out their sun, and we're the primitive ones!?

It's the magnitude of what's required to harness the solar energy in that way that would make them technologically superior. That doesn't necessarily mean benevolent. That's why one prominent scientist warns against sending out signals helter-skelter and announcing our presence in the universe to anybody and everybody within range. We might be in for an unpleasant surprise.

 

[AV1611VET]

It's the magnitude of what's required to harness the solar energy in that way that would make them technologically superior. That doesn't necessarily mean benevolent. That's why one prominent scientist warns against sending out signals helter-skelter and announcing our presence in the universe to anybody and everybody within range. We might be in for an unpleasant surprise.

The Fall threw the whole universe into entropy.

That means that any terrestrial aliens on other planets would be just as technologically challenged as we are.