Pope, King of the world?

WarriorAngel · Dec 31, 2008

MichaelTheeArchAngel said:
# Matthew 16:19
I will give you the key-s of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

# Revelation 1:18
I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
Matthew 16:17. Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father(Also known as the Rock) in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this (or that Rock) rock I will build my church,...
It is more like Yahshua to glorify the Father.
Revelation 10
The Angel and the Little Scroll
1Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven. He was robed in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head; his face was like the sun, and his legs were like fiery pillars. 2He was holding a little scroll, which lay open in his hand. He planted his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land, 3and he gave a loud shout like the roar of a lion. When he shouted, the voices of the seven thunders spoke. 4And when the seven thunders spoke, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven say, "Seal up what the seven thunders have said and do not write it down.

WOW - talk about adding to scriptures - I cannot recall one place where Jesus ever called His Father a Rock..
AND FWIW - your idea makes Jesus sounds wishy washy according to your take...adding 'this rock or that rock'...

Keys - which is representive that Peter was the recipient of ALL the keys of all the Apostles - who were all stewards UNDER Peter's authority.

DD2008 said:
I have read Church history. I quoted exactly what it says in the last sentance of Unam Sanctum. Which is this:

"Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

Which I have copied from this source:

http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_bo08us.htm

I believe this statement is a false teaching. It contradicts scripture. What about my study of Church history did I miss that would tell me it is acceptable for the pope to contradict scripture? Perhaps you are correct and I missed that paragraph.

That is why I said you havent read history...because you critique something that has been said in the earlier writings of the Church fathers. [They were inferred - dont make me find them again for nothing]

NOW - you can say - well that exact phrase wasnt used...he added it. Which I will sigh and say - doesn't anyone understand how it works?

And then I will be told that Jesus didnt have this exactly written in the scriptures - and I will say the early Fathers knew Peter was the Cheif and that all were subject to his teaching and they will point to Matthew 16...and then I will find you several quotes that you will ignore ...and act like I just C&P the entire US Constitution to you...

And then I will just shrug.

So - let's skip to the chase and you go find the quotes I have posted in here many times as i yet am still debating with the same folks I quoted them to.

SO thats how i know how this will end.

simonthezealot said:
Warrior, with all due respect, please spare us the trentolike massive cut n pastes... A link will suffice.

Hey - simon - you know me - IF you are going to state for fact something and I am around - BE prepared to see your mistakes via the C&P of what was said in the early Church.

AND fwiw - I did spare you the many more I could have posted...

JacktheCatholic said:
Actually you are wrong. Jesus at no time in scripture gave keys to the other Apostles. However, you are correct that the other Apostles shared in it's authority.

EXACTLY!

Peter was the Head of the Church [to quote St Chrysostom] and so this is why HE held them - and they were not given individually.

Standing Up said:
Actually you are wrong. Jesus at no time in scripture gave keys to any of the Apostles.

Please note two things about Mt. 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Jesus will give the keys. This is future tense. It hasn't happened yet. This is further confirmed by Jesus saying:

Rev. 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

unless, of course, you are prepared to state that that is Peter speaking.

If you reply, well I meant keys plural, rather than key, please further note that again it is again Christ Jesus who retains the keys up to this moment.

Rev. 1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

He did hand them to Peter.
NOTE the reason Jesus says He will give him the keys [future tense] is that upon HIS death - the ministry will belong to Peter.

BUT until He dies - HE will be the Master present and won't need to hand over the keys to the Steward until He is gone.

Matthew 16
19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Trento · Dec 31, 2008

spiritman said:
How do you determine when he is fallable or infallible in his teachings?

The primordial Word of God is God the Son and thus God himself: "In the beginning was the Word." What's more often called the "Word", embodied in the preaching of the Apostles, the Bible, Sacred Tradition, and dogma, is but the transmission of truths from and about the primordial Word. This media of transmission and elaboration are but the making explicit of much that was implicit in the primitive kerygma. The basic deposit of faith was indeed "delivered once for all to the saints" from the start; but it took centuries of meditation, heresy, and definition to bring forth to maturity.

You probably never heard of The sensus fidelium ("sense of the faithful")? Pope John XXII was soundly and successfully rebuked by the lay masses when he temporarily espoused belief in a false doctrine. So if the need arises the layity can arbitrate.

Because the Church was given the original deposit of faith it is infallible because it proceeds from God.

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 31, 2008

WOW - talk about adding to scriptures - I cannot recall one place where Jesus ever called His Father a Rock..
AND FWIW - your idea makes Jesus sounds wishy washy according to your take...adding 'this rock or that rock'...

So is it rendered "THIS"?

Matt 16:18 "And I yet to thee am saying that thou art petroV and upon tauth <3778> the petra <4073> I shall be building of Me the out-Called and gates of Hades not shall be prevailing of her

Textus Rec.) Matthew 16:18 kagw de soi legw oti su ei petroV kai epi tauth th petra oikodomhsw mou thn ekklhsian kai pulai adou ou katiscusousin authV

Hebrew 11:2 For in this/tauth <3778> were testified to the Elders/presbuteroi 3 To Faith we are apprehending...........

Brennin · Dec 31, 2008

WarriorAngel said:
EXACTLY!

Peter was the Head of the Church [to quote St Chrysostom] and so this is why HE held them - and they were not given individually.

Nonsense. Jesus Christ is the head of the Church. Peter shakes his head at your comments just like the mother of our Lord shakes her head at Mariodoulia. Also, binding and loosing refers to the function of the keys. Since this was extended to the other apostles soon afterward, the other apostles also have the keys and the foundation of your church is exposed as sand.

GuardianShua · Dec 31, 2008

WarriorAngel said:
WOW - talk about adding to scriptures - I cannot recall one place where Jesus ever called His Father a Rock..
AND FWIW - your idea makes Jesus sounds wishy washy according to your take...adding 'this rock or that rock'...

You guys worry me. Tip of the iceburg: # Psalm 18:2
The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge. He is my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.
Psalm 18:1-3 (in Context) Psalm 18 (Whole Chapter)
# Psalm 18:31
For who is God besides the LORD ? And who is the Rock except our God?
Psalm 18:30-32 (in Context) Psalm 18 (Whole Chapter)
# Psalm 18:46
The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God my Savior!
Psalm 18:45-47 (in Context) Psalm 18 (Whole Chapter)
# Psalm 19:14
May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.
Psalm 19:13-14 (in Context) Psalm 19 (Whole Chapter)

Psalm 27:4-6 (in Context) Psalm 27 (Whole Chapter)
# Psalm 28:1
[ Of David. ] To you I call, O LORD my Rock; do not turn a deaf ear to me. For if you remain silent, I will be like those who have gone down to the pit.
Psalm 28:1-3 (in Context) Psalm 28 (Whole Chapter)
# Psalm 31:2
Turn your ear to me, come quickly to my rescue; be my rock of refuge, a strong fortress to save me.
Psalm 31:1-3 (in Context) Psalm 31 (Whole Chapter)
# Psalm 31:3
Since you are my rock and my fortress, for the sake of your name lead and guide me.
Psalm 31:2-4 (in Context) Psalm 31 (Whole Chapter)

# Psalm 42:9
I say to God my Rock, "Why have you forgotten me? Why must I go about mourning, oppressed by the enemy?"
Psalm 42:8-10 (in Context) Psalm 42 (Whole Chapter)
# Psalm 61:2
From the ends of the earth I call to you, I call as my heart grows faint; lead me to the rock that is higher than I.
Psalm 61:1-3 (in Context) Psalm 61 (Whole Chapter)
# Psalm 62:2
He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will never be shaken.
Psalm 62:1-3 (in Context) Psalm 62 (Whole Chapter)
# Psalm 62:6
He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will not be shaken.
Psalm 62:5-7 (in Context) Psalm 62 (Whole Chapter)
# Psalm 62:7
My salvation and my honor depend on God ; he is my mighty rock, my refuge.
Psalm 62:6-8 (in Context) Psalm 62 (Whole Chapter)
# Psalm 71:3
Be my rock of refuge, to which I can always go; give the command to save me, for you are my rock and my fortress.

# Psalm 78:35
They remembered that God was their Rock, that God Most High was their Redeemer.
Psalm 78:34-36 (in Context) Psalm 78 (Whole Chapter)

# Psalm 89:26
He will call out to me, 'You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.'
Psalm 89:25-27 (in Context) Psalm 89 (Whole Chapter)
# Psalm 92:15
proclaiming, "The LORD is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him."
Psalm 92:14-15 (in Context) Psalm 92 (Whole Chapter)
# Psalm 94:22
But the LORD has become my fortress, and my God the rock in whom I take refuge.
Psalm 94:21-23 (in Context) Psalm 94 (Whole Chapter)
# Psalm 95:1
Come, let us sing for joy to the LORD; let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation.
Psalm 95:1-3 (in Context) Psalm 95 (Whole Chapter)

# Psalm 144:1
[ Of David. ] Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.
Psalm 144:1-3 (in Context) Psalm 144 (Whole Chapter)

GuardianShua · Dec 31, 2008

LittleLambofJesus said:
So is it rendered "THIS"?

Matt 16:18 "And I yet to thee am saying that thou art petroV and upon tauth <3778> the petra <4073> I shall be building of Me the out-Called and gates of Hades not shall be prevailing of her

Textus Rec.) Matthew 16:18 kagw de soi legw oti su ei petroV kai epi tauth th petra oikodomhsw mou thn ekklhsian kai pulai adou ou katiscusousin authV

Hebrew 11:2 For in this/tauth <3778> were testified to the Elders/presbuteroi 3 To Faith we are apprehending...........

Is the ancient Greek word for "THIS" the same word for "THAT."???

Trento · Dec 31, 2008

Brennin said:
Nonsense. Jesus Christ is the head of the Church. Peter shakes his head at your comments just like the mother of our Lord shakes her head at Mariodoulia. Also, binding and loosing refers to the function of the keys. Since this was extended to the other apostles soon afterward, the other apostles also have the keys and the foundation of your church is exposed as sand.

Trying to change history again?

Peter, who is called 'the rock on which the church should be built,' who also obtained 'the keys of the kingdom of heaven...' "
Tertullian,On the Prescription Against the Heretics,22(c.A.D. 200),in ANF,III:253

And Peter who holds the Keys on whom the Church of Christ is built, 'against which the gates of hell shall not prevail' "
Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History,6:25 (A.D. 325),in NPNF2,I:273

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 31, 2008

MichaelTheeArchAngel said:
Is the ancient Greek word for "THIS" the same word for "THAT."???

As far as I can tell it is used as "this"
This interlinear can show ya where EXACT forms of both greek and hebrew words are used.

It is first used in Matt 10:23 and used last in Hebrew 11:2.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

tauth <3778> Used 32 times pd Dative Sing Feminine

GuardianShua · Dec 31, 2008

LittleLambofJesus said:
As far as I can tell it is used as "this"
This interlinear can show ya where EXACT forms of both greek and hebrew words are used.

It is first used in Matt 10:23 and used last in Hebrew 11:2.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

tauth <3778> Used 32 times pd Dative Sing Feminine

But can that same Greek word be used for "THAT"?

GuardianShua · Dec 31, 2008

Matthew 16:16. Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father (AKA the Rock) in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, but on that Rock you will build my church, and the gateways to the grave will not overcome it.

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 31, 2008

MichaelTheeArchAngel said:
But can that same Greek word be used for "THAT"?

I don't know any instances where it is used as "that" and perhaps someone else might know.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

3778. houtos Used 466 times

3778. houtos hoo'-tos, including nominative masculine plural houtoi hoo'-toy, nominative feminine singular haute how'-tay, and nominative feminine plural hautai how'-tahee from the article 3588 and 846; the he (she or it), i.e. this or that (often with article repeated):--he (it was that), hereof, it, she, such as, the same, these, they, this (man, same, woman), which, who.

GuardianShua · Dec 31, 2008

LittleLambofJesus said:
I don't know any instances where it is used as "that" and perhaps someone else might know.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

3778. houtos Used 466 times

3778. houtos hoo'-tos, including nominative masculine plural houtoi hoo'-toy, nominative feminine singular haute how'-tay, and nominative feminine plural hautai how'-tahee from the article 3588 and 846; the he (she or it), i.e. this or that (often with article repeated):--he (it was that), hereof, it, she, such as, the same, these, they, this (man, same, woman), which, who.

These, they, and this seem to be the same word, but I will check another book I have to see what it says.

GuardianShua · Dec 31, 2008

Sorry about the delay, ChristianForums keeps malfunctioning. My Strong's Exhaustive Concordance confirms those words are interchangeable.

GuardianShua · Dec 31, 2008

It seems that Yahshua was instructing Peter to build upon the Father, the Holy Spirit. That means that the papal claim as successor is false. That sounds very much like Yahshua to give glory to the Father.Matthew 16:16. Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father (AKA the Rock) in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, but on that Rock you will build my church, and the gateways to the grave will not overcome it.
The name Peter also means rock. It must be that the Father was commonly known as the Rock, because it is used many times in the old Testament for Yahwah.

Brennin · Dec 31, 2008

Trento said:
Trying to change history again?

Peter, who is called 'the rock on which the church should be built,' who also obtained 'the keys of the kingdom of heaven...' "
Tertullian,On the Prescription Against the Heretics,22(c.A.D. 200),in ANF,III:253

And Peter who holds the Keys on whom the Church of Christ is built, 'against which the gates of hell shall not prevail' "
Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History,6:25 (A.D. 325),in NPNF2,I:273

This is not difficult. Binding and loosing refers to the function of the keys. Since the same ability is granted to the other apostles soon afterward, that means that they received the keys also. Now, I know that flies in the face of the tall tales of your church, but it is correct nonetheless.

GuardianShua · Dec 31, 2008

Brennin said:
This is not difficult. Binding and loosing refers to the function of the keys. Since the same ability is granted to the other apostles soon afterward, that means that they received the keys also. Now, I know that flies in the face of the tall tales of your church, but it is correct nonetheless.

I have alway thought of Binding and loosing as having to do with cheese and Ex-lax. Smooth move Ex-lax. whoosh

spiritman · Jan 1, 2009

narnia59 said:
Are you speaking of the 'now' contained within the timeline of human history, or God's eternal 'now'?

Insufficient data. Please explain.

spiritman · Jan 1, 2009

SecretOfFatima said:
AMEN

I expect that to confused you!

Not at all. I was raised a catholic. I commend you for acknowledging the truth.

&Abel · Jan 1, 2009

wow anyone heard this yet?(haven't read the thread)

Pope Benedict XVI holds his pastoral staff during the Epiphany Mass in St. Peter's Basilica at the VaticanPOPE:

"The celebration of the Epiphany of the Lord invites us to contemplate Jesus as the divine Savior, the light that guides us on our journey to eternity." Thousands of families packed Saint Peter's Square to hear the pope's words. In Christian tradition, the Epiphany marks the day three wise men guided by a star pay homage to the Baby Jesus.
Earlier, the pope celebrated mass in Saint Peter's Basilica. In his homily, Benedict said the past decades have seen a "challenge to global civilization, where the center can no longer be Europe and not even that which we call the West or the North of the world."
He added that there is a need to elaborate a new world political and economic order, but, above all, a spiritual and cultural one, a renewed humanism.
Pope Benedict said that now, at the start of the Third Millennium, the world is in the middle of a phase of human history described as globalization. He said that while politicians, scientists and researchers play important roles in the modern world, it is also necessary that the leaders of the great non-Christian and Christian religions are at their side.
Pope Benedict will celebrate another mass on Sunday in the Sistine Chapel in the Vatican. During that ceremony, as is tradition, he will baptize a number of children.

http://www.wwenglish.com/en/voa/stan/2007/01/2007010716041.htm

&Abel · Jan 1, 2009

those are not the words of a christian

Pope, King of the world?

I close my eyes and see you smile

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