Pope Francis attacks Christian Fundamentalist Catholics in response to Terrorism

[BobRyan]

from: http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/Vatican-religion-pope-France/2015/11/30/id/703942/

Pope Francis said Monday that fundamentalism was "a disease of all religions", including the Roman Catholic Church, but had nothing to do with God.

"Fundamentalism is always a tragedy. It is not religious, it lacks God, it is idolatrous," the Argentine pontiff told journalists on the plane during his return from a trip to Africa.

Francis said Islam was not the only religion to suffer from violent extremists, such as the ones behind the deadly attacks in Paris which were claimed by the Islamic State.

"We Catholics, we have a few, even many fundamentalists. They believe they know absolute truth and corrupt others," he said, adding: "I can say this because this is my Church".

What is Francis saying about his fellow Catholics who are "fundamentalist"??

1. They are violent extremists Catholics just as we find among some Muslims?
2. Their belief in "Absolute truth" makes them like Muslim extremists even if they are not violent?

Who are these violent Catholic fundamentalists? Or is this even what he is talking about?

What is meant by a Christian Fundamentalist?

One who "believes the Bible"??

One who believes in a literal real - historic - virgin birth?
One who believes in a literal real - historic - resurrection of Christ?
One who believes in a literal real - historic - 7 day creation week?

or one who "is violent" and attributes their violence to their Christian faith no matter whether they believe in praying to Mary or not? or whether they believe in a bodily resurrection of Christ or not?

 

[AvilaSurfer]

Pope Francis attacks no one. Stupid thread title.

 

[BobRyan]

If you want to make a compelling point - start with answering the question "what is a Catholic Fundamentalist" in your POV.

He calls Catholic fundamentalists a "disease" in Catholicsm. you say this is not an attack on Catholic Fundamentalists. But you do not explain how they would view this as "not an attack" -

how "instructive"

If you want to stand on the platform of claiming yourself to be just such a "Catholic fundamentalist" and you proudly wear the title "disease within Catholicism" or something of that sort - so that his statement is in fact affirming your goals/ideals - rather than an attack -- please help us all to understand how that can possibly be even remotely true.

 

[concretecamper]

Seems to me you just watched the attorney of the family of the terrorists that shot up San Bernardino. Never miss an opportunity to bash the RCC.....too funny. You are a student a Rahm Emanuel.....huh?

 

[BobRyan]

I see - so then Pope Francis did not say that at all -- it was all just made up by the... ??

"dreaded newsMax"??

Still -- not one person offering to say what they think Francis meant by a Catholic "Fundamentalist".

How... 'instructive'

To the list of "dreaded news outlets" you might want to add

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3343363/Fundamentalism-disease-religions-says-Pope.html

Fundamentalism is 'a disease of all religions': Pope says it is not just Islam that has extremist factions

• Pope Francis today said fundamentalism is not just an Islamic problem
• The Roman Catholic Church leader said the 'disease' exists in all religions
• The Argentine pontiff was speaking as he flew back from his African tour
• He visited a mosque in the PK5 area of Bangui in Central African Republic

 

[Achilles6129]

Interesting thread - but what did the Pope mean by "fundamentalists"?

 

[fhansen]

The pope said that all religious fundamentalism is an illness and a form of idolatry.

 

[Achilles6129]

The pope said that all religious fundamentalism is an illness and a form of idolatry.

Right, but what's his definition of fundamentalism?

 

[Wgw]

The word "Catholic fundamentalist" is really a misnomer. I frankly wish Pope Francis had not used this term. He would have made his case better by using "militant extremist."

I very much hope I will not read of Orthodox bishops referring to Old Calendarists as "Orthodox fundamentalists;" that would maoe dor a very unpleasant morning.

 

[BobRyan]

Interesting thread - but what did the Pope mean by "fundamentalists"?

That is the question asked by this thread.

So far no one takes any of the options - not even "I don't know" as the option or "I don't know what the Pope meant" as the option.

 

[BobRyan]

The pope said that all religious fundamentalism is an illness and a form of idolatry.

As we saw in the OP - Francis said ""We Catholics, we have a few, even many fundamentalists. They believe they know absolute truth and corrupt others," he said, adding: "I can say this because this is my Church"

 

[BobRyan]

The word "Catholic fundamentalist" is really a misnomer. I frankly wish Pope Francis had not used this term. He would have made his case better by using "militant extremist."

That "violent extremist" idea is one of the options I gave in the question for this thread.

"A violent extremist that attributes his/her violence to faithful adherence to his/her Christian faith? "

So then you would edit -- Francis' statement that said
"We Catholics, we have a few, even many fundamentalists. They believe they know absolute truth and corrupt others," he said, adding: "I can say this because this is my Church"

And you would make it
"We Catholics, we have a few, even many militant extremists They believe they know absolute truth and corrupt others," he said, adding: "I can say this because this is my Church"

Is that because you equate knowing some absolute Christian truth - as "militant extremism"??

Or was the entire statement unworkable in your POV?

 

[Wgw]

That is one of the options I gave in the question for this thread.

So then you would edit -- Francis' statement that said
"We Catholics, we have a few, even many fundamentalists. They believe they know absolute truth and corrupt others," he said, adding: "I can say this because this is my Church"

And you would make it
"We Catholics, we have a few, even many militant extremists They believe they know absolute truth and corrupt others," he said, adding: "I can say this because this is my Church"

Is that because you equate knowing some absolute Christian truth - as "militant extremism"??

Or was the entire statement unworkable in your POV?

I consider that Fundamentalism should properly be used to refer to that subset of Calvinism which adopted the term in the early 20th century. So in my view, although both you and I are members of traditionalist churches, with worldviews that some might regard as fundamentalist, which I think we ourselves can openly regard as being, at least to some extent, doctrinaire, I do not believe we should self-identify as "Fundamentalist."

In other words, we both believe in absolute truths. So do most Christians. I think therefore the use of the word "fundamentalist" is misleading. Otherwise, if a fundamentalist is simply someone who believes in an absolute truth, we could refer to atheists as fundamentalists, physical scientists as fundamentalists, engineers as fundamentalists, in short, anyone who deals with anything non-subjective.

Which would be a major coup for left wing moral relativists who prefer to adopt a "dialectic" "consensus-based" approach to reality. It would be a major coup for process theology, for post modernism, and for every other form of intellectual degeneration one might conceivably object to. For those people would now be able to assert, with smug self-satisfaction, that you and I are cut of the same cloth as various Islamist extremists.

 

[BobRyan]

I consider that Fundamentalism should properly be used to refer to that subset of Calvinism which adopted the term in the early 20th century. So in my view, although both you and I are members of traditionalist churches, with worldviews that some might regard as fundamentalist, which I think we ourselves can openly regard as being, at least to some extent, doctrinaire, I do not believe we should self-identify as "Fundamentalist."

So then when Francis said -
"We Catholics, we have a few, even many fundamentalists. They believe they know absolute truth and corrupt others," he said, adding: "I can say this because this is my Church"

You believe HE was speaking about Calvinists within his Church??

OR -- you believe he was wrong to say that any fundamentalists at all are in the Catholic Church?

In other words, we both believe in absolute truths. So do most Christians. I think therefore the use of the word "fundamentalist" is misleading.

And then what about his use of the term "believe in absolute truth and corrupt others" - was he talking about corrupting other people with the notion that there is absolute truth - or was he affirming belief in absolute truth and yet corrupting other truths while doing so?? (in your POV)

Otherwise, if a fundamentalist is simply someone who believes in an absolute truth, we could refer to atheists as fundamentalists, physical scientists as fundamentalists, engineers as fundamentalists, in short, anyone who deals with anything non-subjective.

Which would be a major coup for left wing moral relativists

indeed.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

My guess is he is talking about the difference in the letter of the law and the spirit of the law.

 

[BobRyan]

My guess is he is talking about the difference in the letter of the law and the spirit of the law.

So then he was not talking about those who believe in "absolute truth" in your POV - rather he was equivocating between someone who believes in literally not taking God's name in vain or literally not committing adultery (even though they may then go one to have an impure thought) -- with muslim terrorist attacks in Paris?

 

[Wgw]

So then when Francis said -
"We Catholics, we have a few, even many fundamentalists. They believe they know absolute truth and corrupt others," he said, adding: "I can say this because this is my Church"

You believe HE was speaking about Calvinists within his Church??

OR -- you believe he was wrong to say that any fundamentalists at all are in the Catholic Church?



And then what about his use of the term "believe in absolute truth and corrupt others" - was he talking about corrupting other people with the notion that there is absolute truth - or was he affirming belief in absolute truth and yet corrupting other truths while doing so?? (in your POV)



indeed.

in Christ,

Bob

I can't presume to know precisely what Pope Francis meant. It was alas sadly typical of the sort of ambiguous muddled language which has come to characterize his pontificate. Recall, if you can bear it, the whole "who am I to judge?" incident.

I much preferred the direct expressiveness of his predeccessor.

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

So then he was not talking about those who believe in "absolute truth" in your POV - rather he was equivocating between someone who believes in literally not taking God's name in vain or literally not committing adultery (even though they may then go one to have an impure thought) -- with muslim terrorist attacks in Paris?

It's the same thing as what Jesus did when he talked to the Sanhedrin. About the he who is without sin cast the first stone when the letter of the law was very specific.

 

[Achilles6129]

As we saw in the OP - Francis said ""We Catholics, we have a few, even many fundamentalists. They believe they know absolute truth and corrupt others," he said, adding: "I can say this because this is my Church"

That sounds very much like he's talking about people who think the Bible is inerrant and take it seriously.

 

[fhansen]

I think he's speaking of the self-righteous sort of Pharisaical fanaticism that can result from thinking we're so absolutely right, and aligned with God, and everyone else wrong, that, at its most extreme, can allow us to justify persecuting others ala ISIS in our own day and age. A fallen human tendency.