Pope Francis and Ramadan

[Azureknight 773]

This is no heresy my dear fellow Catholic. Seriously, this is a show of respect to the other people especially to the fellow Abrahamic descendants of faith. Therefore thou must apologize for thy action.

 

[Kurama]

This is no heresy my dear fellow Catholic. Seriously, this is a show of respect to the other people especially to the fellow Abrahamic descendants of faith. Therefore thou must apologize for thy action.

Exactly, and as Catholics we should stand up for our Church's infallible teachings. This has been the Church's contemporary view of the Islamic faith.

The historic hate the Church had towards Muslims died along with the Knights Templar (though Anders Breivik tried to resurrect it lol). We have evolved from that...we have changed for the better, we have rediscovered our roots in Christ.

If the Muslims are to truly behead us (as the skeptics say), let us die happily knowing that our martyrdom will bring us to Christ! I would rather die a martyr than take up arms against another child of God... (call me a liberal hippie, I just tend to identify with the early Christians who laid down their lives for God).

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Exactly, and as Catholics we should stand up for our Church's infallible teachings. This has been the Church's contemporary view of the Islamic faith.

The historic hate the Church had towards Muslims died along with the Knights Templar (though Anders Breivik tried to resurrect it lol). We have evolved from that...we have changed for the better, we have rediscovered our roots in Christ.

If the Muslims are to truly behead us (as the skeptics say), let us die happily knowing that our martyrdom will bring us to Christ! I would rather die a martyr than take up arms against another child of God... (call me a liberal hippie, I just tend to identify with the early Christians who laid down their lives for God).

Amen!


Centered In Christ
Jim

 

[Kurama]

Amen!


Centered In Christ
Jim

Amen

Ultimately I'm just sticking true to my signature. Jesus told us to love everyone in the world no matter what...thus I try my best to love everyone!

I'm immature and naïve in this respect...but Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

We must be more like children of we are to enter heaven! Let's not just the Muslims, let's be their friends. That's what Pope Francis is doing...

 

[Irenaeus]

Pope Francis' remarks are pro forma, not necessarily condoning Islam as a Creed by itself. He is simply acknowledging a time of religious devotion.

However, my "beef" is: I've never heard of a Muslim authority saying "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Easter." I don't think we can afford to be perpetually naive about what they think about our religion.

 

[Irenaeus]

Let's not just the Muslims, let's be their friends. That's what Pope Francis is doing...

Hey Kurama!

I see what you're saying, but let's not forget about what Jesus said about disciples evangelizing, readings we have read all across the world this week, over and over again. Words about being sent as sheep among wolves, and about being wise as serpents at the same time as being innocent as doves.

It's a hard balance to strike, but personally I would rather see more realpolitik on the part of Christians rather than spiritual naivete.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

However, my "beef" is: I've never heard of a Muslim authority saying "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Easter."

They're not our teachers. Pope Francis is.

Jim

 

[InnerPhyre]

Pope Francis' remarks are pro forma, not necessarily condoning Islam as a Creed by itself. He is simply acknowledging a time of religious devotion.

However, my "beef" is: I've never heard of a Muslim authority saying "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Easter." I don't think we can afford to be perpetually naive about what they think about our religion.

In the Middle East, you will find Muslims joining in in Pascha celebrations with the Orthodox. They won't go to church, mind you, but when the city is out celebrating, there will be Muslims there too. I have had Muslim friends wish me Merry Christmas before.

You may not see Muslim leaders doing that, but there is a contingent of Muslims who would probably try to kill any leader who tried, so it's understandable. Regardless, as Christians, we have a duty to show love and kindness even if we are not shown it in return. No one should ever have cause to fear a Christian.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Also, last Christmas in Egypt, a large group of Muslims stood outside of a Coptic Church and guarded it from potential attacks, in order that the congregation could celebrate Christmas Mass without fear.


Jim

 

[MKJ]

Hey Kurama!

I see what you're saying, but let's not forget about what Jesus said about disciples evangelizing, readings we have read all across the world this week, over and over again. Words about being sent as sheep among wolves, and about being wise as serpents at the same time as being innocent as doves.

It's a hard balance to strike, but personally I would rather see more realpolitik on the part of Christians rather than spiritual naivete.

You mean like this:

Muslim Scholars Wish Merry Christmas


Whether or not Muslims should say things like that is a matter of debate within Islam. Much as it seems to be here.

 

[Irenaeus]

Fair enough, I retract my statement on that subject.

 

[Kurama]

Fair enough, I retract my statement on that subject.

It makes no difference whether they're nice to us...even if they're really nasty, we should love them and treat them ten times better! That's what loving your neighbour is about. Think about the Good Samaritan...he was looked down by the rest of the Israelites, but then he showed love to one by saving his life. Jesus commended this Samaritan, and we should learn from him.

Anyway doesn't matter what the Muslim clerics and imams think, they pretty much take the monopoly of Islam. Individual Muslims can be as loving and kind as anyone else, they're God's children too! I've always had this belief that there is good within every one of us, it just takes a little nurturing to find it...

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

Pope Francis greets Muslims for the start of Ramadan

This is plain heretical, I don't even know what to say.

Then why did you bother saying anything ?

 

[Irenaeus]

It makes no difference whether they're nice to us...even if they're really nasty, we should love them and treat them ten times better! That's what loving your neighbour is about. Think about the Good Samaritan...he was looked down by the rest of the Israelites, but then he showed love to one by saving his life. Jesus commended this Samaritan, and we should learn from him.

Anyway doesn't matter what the Muslim clerics and imams think, they pretty much take the monopoly of Islam. Individual Muslims can be as loving and kind as anyone else, they're God's children too! I've always had this belief that there is good within every one of us, it just takes a little nurturing to find it...

I agree with you in principle, but when does loving your enemy become abetting your enemy, so that he can do more evil, or remain in error? I think that's kind of the big tightrope that we're constantly walking when we 'do ecumenism.' I think we need a both-and approach. Everyone today is scared to death of criticizing certain aspects of Islam. If we're going to be true Christians, we can't just be nice all the time, although that's certainly a foundation to developing a relationship with Muslims. We also need to develop a respectful attitude of questioning and of probing areas of disagreement so that we can come to truth.

 

[MKJ]

The word ecumenism really only applies to inter-Christian activities.

 

[Irenaeus]

True.

 

[juleamager]

Maybe I'm just getting the wrong impression, but on quite a few occasions I've wondered if you were a closet Muslim. Apologies.

You didn't need to mention that whatsover. It's quite rude to accuse our Catholic brother in Christ of being a closed Muslim. Ever heard the phrase "don't say anything if you have nothing nice to say"? You can't just shout anti-Islamic things (like I hate Islam) and accusations at people like a McCarthyist (like you're a closet Muslim).

I'm know for being overtly friendly to the Jewish people, am I a closet Jew?

 

[bbyrd009]

It makes no difference whether they're nice to us...even if they're really nasty, we should love them and treat them ten times better! That's what loving your neighbour is about. Think about the Good Samaritan...he was looked down by the rest of the Israelites, but then he showed love to one by saving his life. Jesus commended this Samaritan, and we should learn from him.

Anyway doesn't matter what the Muslim clerics and imams think, they pretty much take the monopoly of Islam. Individual Muslims can be as loving and kind as anyone else, they're God's children too! I've always had this belief that there is good within every one of us, it just takes a little nurturing to find it...

Word.

 

[judechild]

BTW, here's the RC definition for "heresy", so we know what we're talking about.

Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same - CCC 2089

I'm not contesting the substance of your post, but there is one pet peeve I have that I'd like to bring up. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is only slightly above scrap paper when it comes to being the official, final word on anything. The Catechism is only a teaching tool, nothing more: "It is meant to encourage and assist in the writing of new local catechism, which take into account various situations and cultures, while carefully preserving the unity of faith and fidelity to catholic doctrine" (John Paul II, Apostolic Constitution Fidei Depositum, 3).

That's not to say don't use The Catechism, but the authority of a phrase in The Catechism comes from the inter-text. The section on heresy, for example, is a quotation of the definition of heresy which is given in Canon 751 in the Code of Canon Law. The Code trumps The Catechism; consequently, it is better - if you are intending to give the Catholic Church's definition on the definition of heresy - to quote the section you did, but attribute it to Canon 751.

 

[Tallguy88]

I'm not contesting the substance of your post, but there is one pet peeve I have that I'd like to bring up. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is only slightly above scrap paper when it comes to being the official, final word on anything. The Catechism is only a teaching tool, nothing more: "It is meant to encourage and assist in the writing of new local catechism, which take into account various situations and cultures, while carefully preserving the unity of faith and fidelity to catholic doctrine" (John Paul II, Apostolic Constitution Fidei Depositum, 3).

That's not to say don't use The Catechism, but the authority of a phrase in The Catechism comes from the inter-text. The section on heresy, for example, is a quotation of the definition of heresy which is given in Canon 751 in the Code of Canon Law. The Code trumps The Catechism; consequently, it is better - if you are intending to give the Catholic Church's definition on the definition of heresy - to quote the section you did, but attribute it to Canon 751.

The catechism is an invaluable teaching tool. It's not meant to go into deep seminary-level theology.