Pope Faults Church’s Focus on Gays and Abortion

[eastcoast_bsc]

Do you think the Pope is tiptoeing Eastcoast?

I think he is floating ideas and being vague. Not necessarily a bad thing but time will tell.

I just prefer people being upfront. remember Howard Cosell ? "Just tell it like it is"

 

[RocksInMyHead]

I think he is floating ideas and being vague. Not necessarily a bad thing but time will tell.

I just prefer people being upfront. remember Howard Cosell ? "Just tell it like it is"

Or perhaps he's just saying reminding Catholics that there's more to their faith than opposing abortion, contraception, and homosexuality. Honestly, I don't see any difference between what he's saying and the established doctrine.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

Fair enough. It might have been useful to include this from the start, no? To me, "reformed Catholic" could mean any of a wide variety of things. Of course, we don't know the whole story - perhaps he left the Church after his daughter was denied baptism, or maybe he's been considering a return to the faith. I fail to see why else someone outside the Church might want their daughter baptized Catholic.

But still, I don't see how this might signal that people think dogmatic change might be coming. The Pope didn't say anything about interfaith cooperation - the big deal has been his statements on homosexuality/contraception/abortion, none of which really applies in this situation. Still seems like some liberal priests being liberal. That's not necessarily a bad thing in my opinion, though in this case it seems more like a hasty response to their sexuality, which is inappropriate.

to be honest, I was too lazy. I am now at work.

To me, "reformed Catholic" could mean any of a wide variety of things. Of course, we don't know the whole story - perhaps he left the Church after his daughter was denied baptism, or maybe he's been considering a return to the faith.

he said he left the church after coming out of the closet. he felt hurt that the church didn't and doesn't recognize and accept his lifestyle. the show Host Dan Rea also a Catholic agreed with him and believes that ones sexuality or lifestyle has no bearing on being Catholic.

We are all sinners and all fall short of the glory of God. But I watch these things with a wary eye. I have seen it here in Boston before.

I felt the caller was being disingenuous. He has no intentions of changing his lifestyle and feels a level of animosity toward the church but yet wants to baptize his daughter in the church. There seems to be a bit missing.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

Or perhaps he's just saying reminding Catholics that there's more to their faith than opposing abortion, contraception, and homosexuality. Honestly, I don't see any difference between what he's saying and the established doctrine.

If the church agrees that abortion is the taking of a life and there were over 300,000 abortion in the US in 2013, then to trivialize that would be an even graver sin. Just my thought and I am sticking with it.

 

[Needing_Grace]

Or perhaps he's just saying reminding Catholics that there's more to their faith than opposing abortion, contraception, and homosexuality. Honestly, I don't see any difference between what he's saying and the established doctrine.

Neither do I.

Hermeneutic of continuity and all that...

 

[isshinwhat]

I pledge my alegiance to Christ's Church, to Pope Francis, and to the Bishhop's Council given to teach us. I will not pick and choose. I will not be a cafeteria Catholic. I will call for the elimination of nuclear weapons, I will advocate for stronger gun control laws in the US, I will oppose abortion in all circumstances, I will advocate for the poor and support their right to health care, education and social mobility, I will judge myself harder than I judge others, I will strive to be a good steward and so on and so forth. Is there anyone out there who's with me? It matters little, I'm okay with going it alone....but a little company would be nice.

It is a fearful thing to hate whom God has loved To look upon another- his weaknesses, his sins, his faults, his defects- is to look upon one who is suffering. He is suffering from negative passions , from the same sinful human corruption from which you yourself suffer. This is very important: do not look upon him with the judgmental eyes of comparison, noting the sins you assume you'd never commit. Rather, see him as a fellow sufferer, a fellow human being who is in need of the very healing of which you are in need. Help him, love him, pray for him, do unto him as you would have him do unto you.

St. Tikhon of Zadonsk

 

[RocksInMyHead]

I felt the caller was being disingenuous. He has no intentions of changing his lifestyle and feels a level of animosity toward the church but yet wants to baptize his daughter in the church. There seems to be a bit missing.

That's quite the cynical view. While he may have no intention of living as a celibate gay man, that doesn't mean that he is incapable of raising his daughter to be a good Catholic. Would you deny baptism to the child of an unmarried heterosexual couple with no plans to marry? Their lifestyle is sinful and they clearly have no plans to change it.

If the church agrees that abortion is the taking of a life and there were over 300,000 abortion in the US in 2013, then to trivialize that would be an even graver sin. Just my thought and I am sticking with it.

And how many people die every year due to causes stemming from poverty? How many starve? No one is trivializing abortion, but there are bigger problems in our world that always seem to get pushed to the side in favor of more politically expedient issues such as abortion.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

That's quite the cynical view. While he may have no intention of living as a celibate gay man, that doesn't mean that he is incapable of raising his daughter to be a good Catholic. Would you deny baptism to the child of an unmarried heterosexual couple with no plans to marry? Their lifestyle is sinful and they clearly have no plans to change it.


And how many people die every year due to causes stemming from poverty? How many starve? No one is trivializing abortion, but there are bigger problems in our world that always seem to get pushed to the side in favor of more politically expedient issues such as abortion.

If you read my earlier post, I never called for the exclusion of his daughters baptism. I just think often that we forget the scripture.

Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save their life[f] will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it.

I think the greatest gift he could give his daughter, is to be the example he asks the church to be.

the scripture above is the hardest for all of us to adhere to. it seems so simple in word but in reality it is tough. But we must be try.

 

[Michie]

I think he is floating ideas and being vague. Not necessarily a bad thing but time will tell.

I just prefer people being upfront. remember Howard Cosell ? "Just tell it like it is"

Yes I prefer it that way myself. I get frustrated at times as well but I'm thinking he is taking on the role of evangelist. It would be nice if all Catholic clergy were more direct though. As you said, time will tell.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

If you read my earlier post, I never called for the exclusion of his daughters baptism. I just think often that we forget the scripture.

You may not have directly called for exclusion, but you definitely seemed opposed.

To recall:

Isn't part of baptism the promise to bring a child up as a Catholic?

I felt the caller was being disingenuous. He has no intentions of changing his lifestyle and feels a level of animosity toward the church but yet wants to baptize his daughter in the church. There seems to be a bit missing.

The first one is a valid reason to refuse baptism, but honestly, I can't see why he would want to baptize her Catholic if he has no desire to return to the Church. The second is totally invalid unless you'd also deny baptism to the child of an unwed couple that plans to remain unmarried. They're more or less the same situation.

I think the greatest gift he could give his daughter, is to be the example he asks the church to be.

the scripture above is the hardest for all of us to adhere to. it seems so simple in word but in reality it is tough. But we must be try.

Agreed, but no one is perfect, and honestly, I think that the man and his partner could still be fine examples of love for their daughter. If they've taken the step of adopting, they're obviously in a committed monogamous relationship, which is already better than a significant percentage of parents out there.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

You may not have directly called for exclusion, but you definitely seemed opposed.

To recall:


The first one is a valid reason to refuse baptism, but honestly, I can't see why he would want to baptize her Catholic if he has no desire to return to the Church. The second is totally invalid unless you'd also deny baptism to the child of an unwed couple that plans to remain unmarried. They're more or less the same situation.


Agreed, but no one is perfect, and honestly, I think that the man and his partner could still be fine examples of love for their daughter. If they've taken the step of adopting, they're obviously in a committed monogamous relationship, which is already better than a significant percentage of parents out there.

I never said anyone was perfect, but if we don't try then we are not following Christ. We have to at least try.

The word of God is to guide us and give us a framework.

“Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save their life[f] will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. 26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and

 

[benedictaoo]

I heard about the pope's interveiw last night on the CBS evening news. I knew this was going to send certain people over the edge and others were going to be rejoycing. I also thought he was more then likly being taken out of context. As usual, the reality lyes somewhere in the middle.

I still don't know anything about this pope other than he is really different from Benedict. IMO, trying to be to much like JPll, trying to top him if you will with the phone calls and the baby kissing.

This pope said something to the effect if we do not stop already thinking abortion, gay marrigae and contraceptives is all that it is to be Catholic that the Church is going to run everybody off. Well guess what? Day late, dollar short on that one. He needs to tell us something we don't already know.

But here we go, another one... He needs to deal head on with the sexual abuse of children and its cover up. That is what turns people off and makes us look like a bunch of phoney people. When he's ready to deal with all these bad bishops, then he may have my ear.

 

[StevenMerten]

The modern world has created a 'false jesus' who accepts everyone no matter how determined they are to not repent of their sins. Our true Jesus accepts and cherishes the repentant. Our true Jesus teaches people the straight and narrow on how to go to heaven. Our true Jesus strongly reprimands the unrepentant. Popes are to lead as Jesus lead. When Pope's come up against sinners who hate Christ's teachings, Here is what Jesus instructs His Catholic leaders to do.

NAB2 LUK 10:8

Whatever town you enter and they welcome you, eat what is set before you, cure the sick in it and say to them, 'The kingdom of God is at hand for you.' Whatever town you enter and they do not receive you, go out into the streets and say, 'The dust of your town that clings to our feet, even that we shake off against you.' Yet know this: the kingdom of God is at hand. I tell you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom on that day than for that town. "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty deeds done in your midst had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would long ago have repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. But it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you. And as for you, Capernaum, 'Will you be exalted to heaven? You will go down to the netherworld.'" Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me."

Jesus could have chosen to be more receptive to the unrepentant Pharisees, but He was not. Jesus stood His ground, no matter how horrible the modern day 'false jesus' crowd may think He was for doing so.

NAB2 MAT 23:29

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the memorials of the righteous, and you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have joined them in shedding the prophets’ blood.’ Thus you bear witness against yourselves that you are the children of those who murdered the prophets; now fill up what your ancestors measured out! You serpents, you brood of vipers, how can you flee from the judgment of Gehenna? Therefore, behold, I send to you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and pursue from town to town, so that there may come upon you all the righteous blood shed upon earth, from the righteous blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Amen, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her young under her wings, but you were unwilling! Behold, your house will be abandoned, desolate.

Let us hope and pray that the papacy Stand and Defend the unborn! A small Catholic Church, filled with faithful, repentant, obedient to Jesus, followers, beats a massive Catholic Church who does away with all Jesus' teachings to become more 'loving' and 'tolerant' of the unrepentant. Pope's are to lead Christ's flock into the 'kingdom of God'. Let our Popes focus on leading Christ's Flock and worry less about what the militant, unrepentant to Jesus' will, are up to. If the unrepentant wicked hate Popes for doing so, then offer it up, as Jesus and the Apostles did, with their lives.

 

[benedictaoo]

This is not rocket science here. The gospel needs to be preach at all times, use words only when needed. That's all this pope is saying.

Jesus came for the sinners, the perfect people who follow every last letter of the law, they have no use for Him. They're already perfect with their following the teachings of the Church, preaching the dogmas to everyone. They don't need God, they have the teachings.

But the sinner is who needs Jesus' mercy and needs to experince that love and mercy inside of His soul and when they do, that is when repentence will come naturally. We can not force repentence out of people by telling them they will go to hell if they do X, Y or Z.

We do not need to repent first, then God will love us. He loves us now and has already forgiven us. We need to allow Him in and accept His love that He gives with no strings attached and all the rest will fall into place. A person will give up their sins because they want to not because we made them.

 

[MKJ]

Trial balloon? That is how I took his statements.

Tonight I listened to a Boston talk show by host Dan Rea. Massachusetts is a predominately Catholic state. The phones were buzzing. Dan is a Catholic and to show how the Pope's statements are reverberating around the city, guests were calling and venting that it is about time. Most viewed the Popes statements as a predecessor as to what is to come.

A lot of callers are still angry with the church.

One guest called and stated that he left the church after he came out of the closet at age 21. That was 30 years ago. He has a partner with whom he lives with and they have a daughter. He was hurt that a priest refused to baptize their daughter 'his claim" and made it clear that he considers himself a "reformed Catholic" Which is usually said as a pejorative.

So Dan Rea put out a request for a priest to call , who was willing to baptize her. within 10 minutes a Priest called and the baptism is going to happen. Another priest called but he was from out of state and he agreed also.

What i got from the show from listening to the guest's including the priest, was that most took the Popes statements the same as I did.

I may be wrong, but I feel the pope needs to stop talking circular with veiled comments and state his positions. I am not sure why Popes and politicians talk in such vague terms. They need to be more direct.

I guess it didn't seem indirect to me at all. It seemed pretty clear and nuanced and contextualized.

Maybe the problem is that people keep looking at everything he says as some sort of sign for the future.

 

[MKJ]

This pope said something to the effect if we do not stop already thinking abortion, gay marrigae and contraceptives is all that it is to be Catholic that the Church is going to run everybody off. Well guess what? Day late, dollar short on that one. He needs to tell us something we don't already know.

Do they know it though? Judging from what people are saying here, many are objecting to what he has said about this. A few people in this thread and the other one have already come out with the "abortion is the most important issue that we have to focus on" schtick. Or the "yes be nice to people but they need to be trying to do what we say if they are going to seek God with us" schtick.

As opposed to what I take to be the Pope's message, which is that Christ's life and message are the most important thing, and they are what can be truly transformative, and that power stands to be obscured by the focus on political issues.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Seems to have gone viral now, trending on most media.








I will submit, if it wasn't for Po-life advocates and their tireless work, we would not see the pro-abprtion crowd on their heels, like we have seen recently.

I have noticed a trend by the Pontiff where he makes veiled comments designed in my opinion to set the table in the future for big changes.
I am not a Rad-Trad as most here know but I find some disturbing trends via comments by the Pope.

What say ye?

From what i read - he said everything there is to say has been said.
And he remains loyal to the Church teaching on these subjects.

He didnt say it didnt need done... but i dont think he can add to the already poignant statements.

I think in time - he will.

I think after he lays down a certain role model - he will go into this more.

As of now - i also think his translation to Italian is difficult for him according to the Vatican site i read. He tries to find the words... and it doesnt come out as he is conveying. So he said - he doesnt know how to translate a lot of his thots to Italian. He will improve. And i think he will use his advisers in time to help him find the appropriate words.
I also think there are certain topics the Vatican tries to keep him from translating til he perfects his ideas and is better able to get it out.

As we see - the English translations seem so grossly distorted it has to frustrate him immensely.

 

[Magnus Maximus]

All the Pope was saying was we need to focus on not just these issues but let's focus on all the social issues, lets not become pigeon holed on a few things but lets look at the other social ills also

 

[RocksInMyHead]

As we see - the English translations seem so grossly distorted it has to frustrate him immensely.

What makes you say that? There's only one english translation of the interview that I'm aware of, and it was done by the Jesuits for publication in their American magazine. Those words have certainly been misinterpreted and sensationalized by the media, but the translation itself is correct.

 

[AMDG]

Snipped to portions addressed

honestly, I can't see why he would want to baptize her Catholic if he has no desire to return to the Church.

A lot of former Catholics (and even some present Catholics) seem to believe that it is baptism alone that saves. They want their children baptized, but they have no intention of being true to their Faith. And yet all priests are under orders to only give the Sacrament of Baptism to those children when they are *sure* they will be raised in the Faith.

Agreed, but no one is perfect, and honestly, I think that the man and his partner could still be fine examples of love for their daughter. If they've taken the step of adopting, they're obviously in a committed monogamous relationship, which is already better than a significant percentage of parents out there.

The parents are to be examples for the growing child. You are aware that God has called sexual relations between the same-sex an "abomination". And yet it is advised to put the child in a schizophrenic world of loving and respecting her parents (and believing that they would not purposely do things against God) and God's clear (and somewhat "fiery") statements from both the Old Testament and the New Testament against same-sex sexual relations. Hardly good for the child--or the Faith.

Even though most *children* can see right through the practice (and lose respect for those who try it), I guess some really do believe in "do as I say and not as I do".