Pope approves blessings for same-sex couples if they don't resemble marriage

IcyChain

Active Member
Nov 22, 2023
353
63
Alexandria VA
✟6,576.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
The funny thing is he posted what language he used to bless these two men, and quite frankly if that was the blessing, he really gave he could have given that one before Tuesday. So, I really don't believe he gave that one, but like you said, he pushes the boundaries, but he stays within at least publicly.

I think I will read his book on the topic and see what he has to say. He seems to be the most hated man in the tradosphere but I do not know where his heart is at. I haven't really read or listened to him, so I do not have both sides of the story. I have only heard from his numerous detractors. To me he seems to push the line, but I don't think he has actually denied any of the teachings of the church. He is portrayed as secretly wanting the Church to allow gay marriage but is that really the truth, or does he have an earnest desire to minister to people with SSA and to bring them into the fold? I am going to investigate further and decide for myself.

The thing is Protestants take a picture of Catholics praying before a statute of Mary and accuse us of idolatry. It may even seem that way at first glance but you have to investigate to get at the truth.
 
Upvote 0

narnia59

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jul 17, 2007
5,751
1,265
✟333,011.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
So you claim that just maybe James Martin violated the new rule? Who will bring him up on canonical charges? He is presumed not to have violated a thing until those charges are made, then proven. To you it all seems to hinge upon the subjective opinion of the recipient 'spouses' and that seems like it will go nowhere in an environment where 'love wins'. My point is that what he did was carefully crafted so he cannot be charged or convicted in a court of canon law. James Martin gets away with it, will do it again and again, and others are going to do the same in the upcoming hours and days and months. Hopefully not years, as I am hoping sanity will re-emerge at the Vatican some day.
Others have been doing it already and getting away with it. The document didn't make that better or worse.

It's not so much what a court of canon law would do with him, it's what his superiors will do. They are who have drawn his boundaries. And evidently before now they have restricted him from openly giving these kinds of blessings, and under this document they are allowing him to do so. Most likely every bishop is going to give instruction to his priests on what his expectations are regarding how this occurs and under what circumstances. It's going to vary. And we'll never be in a position to judge if those conditions were met even if we know what they are. And it's not really our job to do that.

You said to me it seems to hinge on the subjective recipient of the two men. Doesn't the reception of grace always rely on the intent of the person receiving? Any sacrament is only fruitful if the person approaches it with the right intent. And that's subjective. I can't know if another person had a fruitful confession and received valid absolution because I don't know their intent. And it would seem to me to be the same with these blessings. If the two men came forward with the intent that the blessing validate their sexual relationship then I would think just like a sacrament, it's not fruitful and there is no reception of grace. If they came with open minds and hearts to ask God to lead them toward Him wherever that my lead, then I would think such a blessing could be helpful to perhaps move them on the right path. Am I wrong about that?
 
Upvote 0

narnia59

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jul 17, 2007
5,751
1,265
✟333,011.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I think I will read his book on the topic and see what he has to say. He seems to be the most hated man in the tradosphere but I do not know where his heart is at. I haven't really read or listened to him, so I do not have both sides of the story. I have only heard from his numerous detractors. To me he seems to push the line, but I don't think he has actually denied any of the teachings of the church. He is portrayed as secretly wanting the Church to allow gay marriage but is that really the truth, or does he have an earnest desire to minister to people with SSA and to bring them into the fold? I am going to investigate further and decide for myself.

The thing is Protestants take a picture of Catholics praying before a statute of Mary and accuse us of idolatry. It may even seem that way at first glance but you have to investigate to get at the truth.
I would encourage you to not only read his book but also observe his posts on social media. After doing so I don't have any doubt he thinks the Church should completely approve and endorse gay marriage as a sacramental union. He wants the teaching to change. But he is often very sly and subtle in what he says and does. But if you watch him long enough I don't think you can come to any other conclusion.
 
  • Like
Reactions: IcyChain
Upvote 0

narnia59

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jul 17, 2007
5,751
1,265
✟333,011.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
The text published by Cardinal Ladaria clearly states that “the Church does not have, nor can it have, the power to bless unions of persons of the same sex.”

To what degree is that still effective now?
It's still in effect based on the document I read.

After affirming that marriage is the union between a man and a woman, the document says this:

"This is also the understanding of marriage that is offered by the Gospel. For this reason, when it comes to blessings, the Church has the right and the duty to avoid any rite that might contradict this conviction or lead to confusion. Such is also the meaning of the Responsum of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which states that the Church does not have the power to impart blessings on unions of persons of the same sex."

So it affirms that the Church does not have the power to bless unions of persons of the same sex.
 
Upvote 0

Wolseley

Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu
Feb 5, 2002
21,140
5,629
63
By the shores of Gitchee-Goomee
✟277,219.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Martin has been brinking and undermining for years. The pope still seems to favor him.

Yes, exactly. Carving away, preparing, sapping, very carefully. Sickeningly so.


Malignant influences always work slowly....very slowly, to accomplish their aims without alarming anyone. It's like the frog in the pot of boiling water: by the time he realizes something's wrong, he's already cooked.


 
Upvote 0

Chrystal-J

The one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Site Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
12,811
6,013
Detroit
✟806,518.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
pope pius.jpg
 
Upvote 0

IcyChain

Active Member
Nov 22, 2023
353
63
Alexandria VA
✟6,576.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Upvote 0

IcyChain

Active Member
Nov 22, 2023
353
63
Alexandria VA
✟6,576.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Just look at the sources this person uses. Everything makes sense.

2. Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman Church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other Church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman Pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the Church throughout the world.

3. In this way, by unity with the Roman Pontiff in communion and in profession of the same faith , the Church of Christ becomes one flock under one Supreme Shepherd [50].

4. This is the teaching of the Catholic truth, and no one can depart from it without endangering his faith and salvation.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

IcyChain

Active Member
Nov 22, 2023
353
63
Alexandria VA
✟6,576.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single

Is history repeating?​

Are we witnessing the genesis of a new Protestant Reformation among those who champion “tradition”? In recent years, there appears to be an increasing number of Catholics who are unashamedly repeating the errors of Luther and the Reformers with regard to the papacy and magisterial authority. We also see in this movement the adoption of the spirit of Americanism and political ideas that are incompatible with the teachings of the Magisterium. Traditionalist media outlets and well-known commentators such as Eric Sammons, Peter Kwasniewski, Taylor Marshall, Kennedy Hall all promote a common sentiment — that they claim to believe in the papacy and the Magisterium of the Catholic Church in theory, but in reality, they reject the authority of the pope and any Church teachings that conflict with their notion of “tradition.”

These traditionalists sit in judgment of the Magisterium. Effectively their proclamations serve to override magisterial teachings in matters of faith and morals. They offer their assent to themselves and their own personal judgements, putting themselves in the driver’s seat. They place their own consciences above the deposit of faith. This is the essence of Protestantism.

Radical traditionalists will agree with the Magisterium insofar as the Magisterium is in agreement with them. If the Magisterium says something they do not like, they will “correct” the Magisterium in accordance with what they interpret “tradition” to be. Some will go as far as accusing the Magisterium of heresy. All the while, they call themselves “true Catholics” and insist that they are guarding the deposit of faith and tradition.

In the footsteps of Luther​

This very notion was first championed and enunciated by Martin Luther at the Diet of Worms on April 18, 1521 (emphasis added):

“Since your most serene majesty and your highnesses require of me a simple, clear, and direct answer, I will give one, and it is this: I cannot submit my faith either to the pope or to the council, because it is clear that they have fallen into error and even into inconsistency with themselves. If, then, I am not convinced by proof from Holy Scripture, or by cogent reasons, if I am not satisfied by the very text I have cited, and if my judgment is not in this way brought into subjection to God’s word, I neither can nor will retract anything; for it cannot be either safe or honest for a Christian to speak against his conscience. Here I stand. I cannot do otherwise. God help me. Amen.”
— Martin Luther’s Speech at the Diet of Worms, 1521
Luther is, in essence, saying that he will submit to his own conscience and his personal interpretation of what constitutes and biblically sound doctrine, tradition, and revelation because he determined that the ecclesiastical powers of his time and the past have contradicted what councils and other popes have taught. He is asserting that unless someone can convince him that what the Catholic Church teaches is both biblical and in harmony with the deposit of faith, he will submit to his conscience and his interpretations. This pattern of thought is the framework of the thesis of traditionalism and is found in statements that traditionalists repeat ad infinitum such as the following:

“Pope Francis’s teaching on the death penalty is in contradiction with Scripture and Sacred Tradition.”
Amoris Laetitia is not in continuity with divinely revealed truths.”
“The Second Vatican Council’s teaching on religious liberty is in direct violation of the Church’s previous teachings on the matter.”
“I will not obey Traditionis Custodes because it is a violation of justice and outside the scope of the pope’s authority.”
“I don’t follow the pope, I follow Jesus.”

Do you see the thought process at work? This mentality ultimately places the individual member of the laity or the average cleric as the authentic interpreter of divine law and tradition, over and above the authority of the pope and the official teachings and laws of the Church. Traditionalists assume that their preferred interpretations of the Magisterium are correct, and they are free to disregard what the living Magisterium teaches. This is similar to the Protestant notion of the individual’s freedom to interpret of Sacred Scripture. With this mindset, one is free to disregard what their own pastor or bishop says and instead abide by whatever seems most traditional to them. Likewise, Protestants are typically free to disagree with their pastors in order to follow their own personal understandings of Scripture.
 
Upvote 0

Wolseley

Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu
Feb 5, 2002
21,140
5,629
63
By the shores of Gitchee-Goomee
✟277,219.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I dunno.....Luther wanted to get rid of Church teachings; Traditionalists want to preserve Church teachings. I don't really think the two are compatible.
 
Upvote 0

IcyChain

Active Member
Nov 22, 2023
353
63
Alexandria VA
✟6,576.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
I dunno.....Luther wanted to get rid of Church teachings; Traditionalists want to preserve Church teachings. I don't really think the two are compatible.
Protestants say that they only want to preserve the teachings of the Bible, in contradiction to what the Catholic Church teaches. They then interpret the Bible for themselves and reach conclusions concerning what the Bible means.

Traditionalists say that they only want to preserve Catholic tradition in contradiction to what the Pope and the bishops in communion with him teach. Then they interpret tradition for themselves and reach conclusions concerning what tradition means.

Both the Protestant and the Traditionalists are convinced that their private interpretations are correct.

The basic problem here is this - you have your interpretation and the Pope has his interpretation. Who gets to decide? Every person according to his own analysis? This is the essence of Protestantism.

In the Catholic Church - "the task of authentically interpreting the word of God, whether written or handed on, (8) has been entrusted exclusively to the living teaching office of the Church, (9) whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."

 
  • Agree
Reactions: Lady Bug
Upvote 0

Wolseley

Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu
Feb 5, 2002
21,140
5,629
63
By the shores of Gitchee-Goomee
✟277,219.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Protestants say that they only want to preserve the teachings of the Bible, in contradiction to what the Catholic Church teaches. They then interpret the Bible for themselves and reach conclusions concerning what the Bible means.

Traditionalists say that they only want to preserve Catholic tradition in contradiction to what the Pope and the bishops in communion with him teach. Then they interpret tradition for themselves and reach conclusions concerning what tradition means.

Both the Protestant and the Traditionalists are convinced that their private interpretations are correct.

The basic problem here is this - you have your interpretation and the Pope has his interpretation. Who gets to decide? Every person according to his own analysis? This is the essence of Protestantism.
I'm afraid I have to disagree with you to a degree there, Icy. All the Traditionalists that *I* know adhere strictly to the Deposit and Dogmas of the Faith; anything that swerves from that (i.e,, female priests, female deacons, homosexual "marriage", etc., etc., etc.) is not accepted.

Ergo, the stuff coming out now from, say, Germany with this Synodality or whatever you call it, for example, is not accepted by the Traditionalists, because it contradicts the infallible teachings of the Church. It might be new, certainly, but that doesn't make it correct. It's not that the Traditionalists are throwing anything away, it's that if some cockeyed innovation comes along that flies in the face of the Church's infallible teachings, they refuse to abide by it.

Luther, on the other hand, took stuff that had been there from the beginning of the Church, and chucked it out if he didn't agree with it. He did away with five sacraments, he threw out the Pope as Vicar of Christ, he threw away all of the Apostolic Fathers, and he threw away nearly a dozen Old Testament books that the Church had already declared to be canonical Scripture---and he was on the verge of throwing out at least two New Testament books, until his buddy Philip Melanchthon talked him out of it, saying that if he kept on at the rate he was going, he was going to end up with a pretty thin Bible before long.

So the difference, as I see it, is that Luther threw things away, whereas Traditionalists refuse to throw away things that have been there since the beginning of the Faith in order to embrace new, contradictory novelties. Now, you are correct in saying that the Pope and the bishops are the ones who get to say what is and what isn't----but only if it does not contradict Holy Scripture, the Apostolic Deposit, Conciliar decrees, or any other form of infallible teaching approved by the Church.

Therefore, the bishops in Germany can churn out decrees by the hundreds of thousands, if they want to; but if it is not in line with the teaching the Church has had since 33 A.D., I for one am not going to accept it, bishops or no. And if the Pope himself came out tomorrow and said polygamy or some such nonsense was perfectly fine (I am not saying he's going to), I wouldn't accept that, either. There are more than enough warnings from Jesus and Paul in the Scriptures and various Early Fathers that plainly tell you, "If you are hearing a teaching that flies in face of what you have been taught, ignore it."

That's where I'm at. You may do as you wish.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Markie Boy

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2017
1,642
977
United States
✟402,350.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Protestants say that they only want to preserve the teachings of the Bible, in contradiction to what the Catholic Church teaches. They then interpret the Bible for themselves and reach conclusions concerning what the Bible means.

Traditionalists say that they only want to preserve Catholic tradition in contradiction to what the Pope and the bishops in communion with him teach. Then they interpret tradition for themselves and reach conclusions concerning what tradition means.

Both the Protestant and the Traditionalists are convinced that their private interpretations are correct.

The basic problem here is this - you have your interpretation and the Pope has his interpretation. Who gets to decide? Every person according to his own analysis? This is the essence of Protestantism.

In the Catholic Church - "the task of authentically interpreting the word of God, whether written or handed on, (8) has been entrusted exclusively to the living teaching office of the Church, (9) whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."


There is no way around private interpretation. A person has to interpret things and decide to follow the Vatican no matter what, or Catholic tradition - both of which are at odds with each other more clearly than ever. Or you can look at the situation, decide neither is correct and go elsewhere.

If you are alive, there is no way around making a "private interpretation", which is a long way to say "choice". The implication seems to be that anything but blind obedience is bad.

If I were to come back to Catholicism, it's so divided and at war within itself - I dunno what a guy would do. Blind obedience to the Vatican? Go with the Trad rebels? The all claim to be the true faith.

There is no way around private interpretation, so it shouldn't be looked down upon.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wolseley
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Lady Bug

Thankful For My Confirmation
Site Supporter
Aug 23, 2007
22,197
10,540
✟785,895.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
I don't know...

I always found it weird when people say that we can "read the Bible for ourselves." I have tried to read many parts of the Bible, many times, and I'm like - there are just some things that are either cryptic or don't make sense if you're just trying to read it for yourself. I'm thinking of Acts 8:30-31.

So Philip ran up and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked. “How can I,” he said, “unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

Before anyone says "let the Holy Spirit guide you in your interpretation," that is a bunch of malarkey. ANYONE can say that and come up with their own conclusion as to what a Scripture may mean, and how are we to determine who is correct? Who is the arbiter? The Holy Spirit? Then why does that same Holy Spirit give like...100 different answers to 100 different people? We can say how the JWs and Mormons are "not Christian," but they can come right back at you and say that the Holy Spirit was guiding them to their doctrines.
 
  • Like
Reactions: IcyChain
Upvote 0

IcyChain

Active Member
Nov 22, 2023
353
63
Alexandria VA
✟6,576.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
There is no way around private interpretation.
Yes, there is a way around private interpretation. You submit to the authority of the pope. There are things (such as the death penalty, for example) that if I were to analyze the issue myself I would reach a different conclusion with pope Francis (or even John Paul 2 for that matter). I choose to put aside my own private analysis and submit to authority. It is not that difficult of a thing to do. Most people who have a boss at work have put aside their own opinions and does what the boss says to do. The pope is the boss of the Catholic Church.
A person has to interpret things and decide to follow the Vatican no matter what, or Catholic tradition - both of which are at odds with each other more clearly than ever.
You think that they are at odds with each other, but you do not know that they are at odds with each other. You may conclude that that the vatican is at odds with tradition, and I may conclude that the vatican is completely in line with catholic tradtion. What then? We can act like Protestants and each do as we please, or we can act like Catholics and submit to the authority of the pope.

And it is not Catholic to think that the living Magisterium can be at odds with Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. That is a protestant notion that has crept into the "tradtionalist" Catholic movement.


It is clear, therefore, that sacred tradition, Sacred Scripture and the teaching authority of the Church, in accord with God's most wise design, are so linked and joined together that one cannot stand without the others, and that all together and each in its own way under the action of the one Holy Spirit contribute effectively to the salvation of souls.​


When it comes to the question of interventions in the prudential order, it could happen that some Magisterial documents might not be free from all deficiencies. Bishops and their advisors have not always taken into immediate consideration every aspect or the entire complexity of a question. But it would be contrary to the truth, if, proceeding from some particular cases, one were to conclude that the Church's Magisterium can be habitually mistaken in its prudential judgments, or that it does not enjoy divine assistance in the integral exercise of its mission.​

If you are alive, there is no way around making a "private interpretation", which is a long way to say "choice". The implication seems to be that anything but blind obedience is bad.

If I were to come back to Catholicism, it's so divided and at war within itself - I dunno what a guy would do. Blind obedience to the Vatican? Go with the Trad rebels? The all claim to be the true faith.

There is no way around private interpretation, so it shouldn't be looked down upon.
You are demonstrating exactly why the "traditionalist" Catholic movement has been just as harmful to the Church as that of the "liberal" Catholics.

The pope is a unifying force within the Catholic Church. That is one reason why our Lord Jesus gave the keys of the kingdom to Peter and instituted the papacy.


2. Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman Church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other Church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman Pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the Church throughout the world.​
3. In this way, by unity with the Roman Pontiff in communion and in profession of the same faith , the Church of Christ becomes one flock under one Supreme Shepherd [50].​

. . .​

7. This gift of truth and never-failing faith was therefore divinely conferred on Peter and his successors in this See so that they might discharge their exalted office for the salvation of all, and so that the whole flock of Christ might be kept away by them from the poisonous food of error and be nourished with the sustenance of heavenly doctrine. Thus the tendency to schism is removed and the whole Church is preserved in unity, and, resting on its foundation, can stand firm against the gates of hell.​
What we have now in the Church is that Protestantism is infiltrating it both from the "liberal" and the "traditionalist" Catholics, both of whom refuse to submit to the authority of the pope, only in different ways. Because of this refusal to submit to the pope, we have the divisions within the Church that you refer to. If everyone submitted to the authority of the pope, then we would be unified.
 
  • Useful
Reactions: Lady Bug
Upvote 0

IcyChain

Active Member
Nov 22, 2023
353
63
Alexandria VA
✟6,576.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
ANYONE can say that and come up with their own conclusion as to what a Scripture may mean, and how are we to determine who is correct? Who is the arbiter? The Holy Spirit? Then why does that same Holy Spirit give like...100 different answers to 100 different people? We can say how the J
Protestants have been privately interpreting the Bible for 500 years and they still cannot even agree on basic things such as the necessity of baptism.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Lady Bug
Upvote 0

Markie Boy

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2017
1,642
977
United States
✟402,350.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I don't know...

I always found it weird when people say that we can "read the Bible for ourselves." I have tried to read many parts of the Bible, many times, and I'm like - there are just some things that are either cryptic or don't make sense if you're just trying to read it for yourself. I'm thinking of Acts 8:30-31.

So Philip ran up and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked. “How can I,” he said, “unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

Before anyone says "let the Holy Spirit guide you in your interpretation," that is a bunch of malarkey. ANYONE can say that and come up with their own conclusion as to what a Scripture may mean, and how are we to determine who is correct? Who is the arbiter? The Holy Spirit? Then why does that same Holy Spirit give like...100 different answers to 100 different people? We can say how the JWs and Mormons are "not Christian," but they can come right back at you and say that the Holy Spirit was guiding them to their doctrines.

I think this point is exaggerated by some that insist you NEED someone to tell you what it says. There will be differences as long as there are people.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Markie Boy

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2017
1,642
977
United States
✟402,350.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The papacy seems to be causing more problems than solving them these days.

Simple answer please - do you follow the Vatican or Tradition now? You can no longer do both.

This also shows there is no way around private interpretation. Which will it be - follow the Vatican, or Tradition?
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Wolseley
Upvote 0