Polygamous-sect children ordered to stay in Texas custody

[immersedingrace]

Agreement with beliefs has absoplutely nothing to do with my stance, it is the violation of the Bill of Rights as well as the constitutional issues that bother me, The precedent being set. False calls, mass roundup of innocent and guilty, these are things that should concern everyone.

I guess I don't see a violation for the bill of rights or the constitution in removing children from a home when child abuse, sexual or otherwise, is suspected. I do, however, see the compound/sect breaking the law by forcing underage girls to marry.

 

[Nadiine]

I guess I don't see a violation for the bill of rights or the constitution in removing children from a home when child abuse, sexual or otherwise, is suspected. I do, however, see the compound/sect breaking the law by forcing underage girls to marry.

and hopefully polygamy?

 

[Nadiine]

The Amish marriages aren't usually arranged. They aren't usually married at 13-14 year olds. They may marry younger than the norm, but they aren't forced into it and they are usually married to someone of a similar age. There is a difference.

Also my point in other posts - the polygamist cult groups in Mormonism are marrying minors off to old adult men.
Sorry I find perversion in that on the men's side. Shouldn't adult men seek a compatible partner who shares his values and is mentally equal OR SOMETHING??

It looks to me like they want to marry immature little girls for sex instead of looking for ladies that are appropriate to share a life together on a comparable level.

I find it perverted

 

[LouTheWicked]

I think these men's motives were to pass their genes through as many women as possible. And the younger the woman or girl, the more fertile and the more years she can spend bearing children.

I think this is why they specifically selected young girls, they used their religion as an excuse to turn them into their personal brood mares and sex toys.

I don't even know why this is being debated. Sex with children is wrong, rape is wrong. The police heard about it and they instantly raided the compund for safety measures, simple.

Sure, the children will cry and might be distressed at first from being seperated from their mothers but hell, would you rather they were kept there and still be able to sleep at night knowing that you could have prevented more abuse, more misery and ultimately imprisonement by a group of scumbags who were using young girls and their children for their own selfish personal gain?

This is not about religous rights or even legal matters, this is about human rights.

 

[Nadiine]

I think these men's motives were to pass their genes through as many women as possible. And the younger the woman or girl, the more fertile and the more years she can spend bearing children.

I think this is why they specifically selected young girls, they used their religion as an excuse to turn them into their personal brood mares and sex toys.

I don't even know why this is being debated. Sex with children is wrong, rape is wrong. The police heard about it and they instantly raided the compund for safety measures, simple.

Sure, the children will cry and might be distressed at first from being seperated from their mothers but hell, would you rather they were kept there and still be able to sleep at night knowing that you could have prevented more abuse, more misery and ultimately imprisonement by a group of scumbags who were using young girls and their children for their own selfish personal gain?

This is not about religous rights or even legal matters, this is about human rights.

This is debated in the secular world as well; it's not a Christian debate (if you meant why are Christians even debating this?)...
Just 2 days ago on Court Tv, I heard Jamie Floyd give her own shpeel on this and how it's horrific and wrong.


I would think that anyone who reflects on these cult compounds would have a little more common sense in the dangers that are there for weak-minded/weak-willed adults and children alike.

Perverts usually and often hide behind religion and positions that give them power, respect and access to victims and they're everywhere.

 

[wanderingone]

Authority to remove from individual households, does it not make you indignant that a whole community was removed? I am sure they did not have any evidence so widespread as to suggest that everyone is guilty and I am sure that these displaced mothers and children are so much better off mentally now that the great benevolant state has decided wwhat is best for them. 1984 anyone?

The FLDS compound is not a community of individual families. You can't compare it to CPS going into someplace like Jackson Heights in Queens and removing every child in the town.

Unlike you I am not sure what they found, I wasn't there, I'm pretty sure you weren't either. As I mentioned in my earlier post, if they did not find situations that allow for the removal of children in every one of these cases it will be setback for any progress at helping individual victims of abuse in that particular group.

I am not "indignant" - I question using wholesale removal as a tactic because I believe in the end most will be returned and once again the nuts in the FLDS get to claim they are being tested.

It has been what about 50 years since the last time the state decided on a full scale action against a polygamous community? That time they took the men.. problem is as long as they weren't fraudulently married to more than one person there was no justification for arrest. The action backfired tremendously..and contributed to the FLDS and similar polygamous religious communities never being investigated at all for their various crimes.

In my experience people in certain religious groups are left to do whatever they would like to each other and to their children because the state has been stung by poor handling of cases in the past. Social services workers and their administrations are so afraid of being accused of acting against religious beliefs there have been some serious cases of abuse that failed to get investigated timely. We had a case in NYC where a worker was told over and over not to remove children from a particular family because the family was complaining that she didn't understand or respect the religious reasons for certain things. When the children finally were removed it was because one of the children themselves (a child who was still in elementary school) walked across the city to a police station quite a distance away to report that his father had broken his sister's arm and was not taking her to the hospital. All of the children had numerous badly healed fractures and scars from burns and cuts.

That doesn't mean I believe every person in a particular group should be watched more carefully than those in other groups.. but they also shouldn't be ignored in the name of freedom of religion.

When you live in a compound where someone can decide today to reassign your family to a different home, to a different husband and father I simply don't see that as a couple hundred individual families.. that's a clan.

Personally I could care less about the polygamy, live how you want to live, but if children are being molested and abused in other capacities, and girls and women are forced to marry against their will oand the workers saw indications of that abuse then I can't say the action to remove the children was completely incorrect.

 

[Nadiine]

The FLDS compound is not a community of individual families. You can't compare it to CPS going into someplace like Jackson Heights in Queens and removing every child in the town.

Unlike you I am not sure what they found, I wasn't there, I'm pretty sure you weren't either. As I mentioned in my earlier post, if they did not find situations that allow for the removal of children in every one of these cases it will be setback for any progress at helping individual victims of abuse in that particular group.

I am not "indignant" - I question using wholesale removal as a tactic because I believe in the end most will be returned and once again the nuts in the FLDS get to claim they are being tested.

It has been what about 50 years since the last time the state decided on a full scale action against a polygamous community? That time they took the men.. problem is as long as they weren't fraudulently married to more than one person there was no justification for arrest. The action backfired tremendously..and contributed to the FLDS and similar polygamous religious communities never being investigated at all for their various crimes.

In my experience people in certain religious groups are left to do whatever they would like to each other and to their children because the state has been stung by poor handling of cases in the past. Social services workers and their administrations are so afraid of being accused of acting against religious beliefs there have been some serious cases of abuse that failed to get investigated timely. We had a case in NYC where a worker was told over and over not to remove children from a particular family because the family was complaining that she didn't understand or respect the religious reasons for certain things. When the children finally were removed it was because one of the children themselves (a child who was still in elementary school) walked across the city to a police station quite a distance away to report that his father had broken his sister's arm and was not taking her to the hospital. All of the children had numerous badly healed fractures and scars from burns and cuts.

That doesn't mean I believe every person in a particular group should be watched more carefully than those in other groups.. but they also shouldn't be ignored in the name of freedom of religion.

When you live in a compound where someone can decide today to reassign your family to a different home, to a different husband and father I simply don't see that as a couple hundred individual families.. that's a clan.

Personally I could care less about the polygamy, live how you want to live, but if children are being molested and abused in other capacities, and girls and women are forced to marry against their will oand the workers saw indications of that abuse then I can't say the action to remove the children was completely incorrect.

This post fully spoke my feelings on this - this IS what is being done under the guise of religion - and it's abhorant. They may very well be Mormons... but the physical actions and civil laws being broken cannot go ignored just becuz they are a certain religion.
No religious belief should grant anyone the right to break civil & moral laws; removing the rights of others freedom.

I have heard that they are "reassigning" women & children around to other men to live this is why the kids didn't know their last names & in some cases, biological father.

The only thing I differ on here is the polygamy - I AM fully against it for several reasons; not just moral ones.
And it is against the law - but good luck proving it formally in a court of law.

It's not easy to catch certain types of criminals & no doubt it's why they haven't attempted this much earlier (like I wished they would have).

 

[immersedingrace]

and hopefully polygamy?

from a moral standpoint, I disagree with polygamy. It is illegal in this country. But in this particular case, I couldn't care less about the polygamy.

 

[Nadiine]

from a moral standpoint, I disagree with polygamy. It is illegal in this country. But in this particular case, I couldn't care less about the polygamy.

I'm a little unsure why becuz it's the polygamy that promotes the abuses that follow from it. (at least it's a contributing factor)

 

[flicka]

I'm a little unsure why becuz it's the polygamy that promotes the abuses that follow from it. (at least it's a contributing factor)

Not really. Polygamy is just having more than one wife, it says nothing of children marrying young, to whom, or living a separatist lifestyle. I saw a middle aged woman interviewed on TV last week who lives a seemingly perfectly normal life. She has her own home and a job and happens to be the plural wife a a fella who takes turns at each wifes house. Since they are part of society and not under the spell of a cult leader it's not a problem for me. Especially since there is still only one LEGAL wife they aren't breaking any laws. This sect isn't about polygamy as much as power and control.

 

[wanderingone]

I'm a little unsure why becuz it's the polygamy that promotes the abuses that follow from it. (at least it's a contributing factor)

It's not the polygamy that promotes the abuse. It's the abusive individuals at the head of this community. When people are free to choose who they will marry and what type of marriage they will have the potential for abuse is much reduced. In a closed community choices are generally non existent.. although most people will claim they are free to leave and they have "chosen" this life.

I do believe that when people are completely free to choose their partners multiple partner families are not the way most will choose but I truly consider it none of my business, and none of the governments business what adults choose to do with their romantic, sexual and family choices as long as they aren't abusing each other or their children.

If the FLDS didn't claim polygamy was a requirement to get to some equivalent of heaven and if all of their marriages were between people of legal marriage age then I'd say they should be left alone. Since people who have left including grown men have reported various institutionalized forms of abuse as well as sex and physical abuse of children and adults, as well as various financial fraud I think they deserve some scrutiny.

 

[Nadiine]

Not really. Polygamy is just having more than one wife, it says nothing of children marrying young, to whom, or living a seperatist lifestyle. I saw a middle aged woman interviewd on TV last week who lives a seemingly perfectly normal life. She has her own home and a job and happens to be the plural wife a a fella who takes turns at each wifes house. Since they are part of society and not under the spell of a cult leader it's not a problem for me. Especially since there is still only one LEGAL wife so the rest can just be considered girlfriends on the side to the rest of us.

Well that sounds just lovely for him as he makes his rounds for sex from each one every alternating night....

The polygamy in these large groups (compounds or communities) tend to cast off alot of young boys when so many women are taken up by 1 man.
You can have 5 females to 1 man; multiplied by hundreds if not thousands of men involved in it - how do all the males find a girl, marry & settle down with them with those ratios?
They don't and it's a known fact that the young boys are abandoned on their own eventually.

You can support such a group, I won't. And I'm not convinced they aren't under a 'spell of a cult' either; I suppose neither of us can say for sure which is the case without further evidence either way.

They also DO tend to start the girls out extremely young with the older men in marriages & sex as a pattern.

Many who have gotten out of those polygamist communities say this issue is rampant within [Mormon] polygamy (as is incest)... I won't argue against that (at least the underage marriage/pregnancy), becuz it looks like that's at play in this compound which is why the kids were removed by authorities.

 

[immersedingrace]

I'm a little unsure why becuz it's the polygamy that promotes the abuses that follow from it. (at least it's a contributing factor)

I disagree. You can be polygamous without being abusive.

 

[Nadiine]

I disagree. You can be polygamous without being abusive.

I actually disagree with that - even women who are FOR polygamy and in it admit that they suffer in it while they know he's "with" one of the others.

I think it's abusive to women period. Nevermind some of the results of the children who are raised into it as if it's good or normal.

I think we're having a problem assessing 'harm' in our culture today.
I'd also add that since God ordained 1 man with 1 woman as the prototype/model for marital union and the family, why are we thinking any other formula is fine and harmless?

It cant' be unless we decide God is actually wrong, wouldn't that be the case? Who defines harm?

 

[flicka]

Well that sounds just lovely for him as he makes his rounds for sex from each one every alternating night....

The polygamy in these large groups (compounds or communities) tend to cast off alot of young boys when so many women are taken up by 1 man.
You can have 5 females to 1 man; multiplied by hundreds if not thousands of men involved in it - how do all the males find a girl, marry & settle down with them with those ratios?
They don't and it's a known fact that the young boys are abandoned on their own eventually.

You can support such a group, I won't. And I'm not convinced they aren't under a 'spell of a cult' either; I suppose neither of us can say for sure which is the case without further evidence either way.

They also DO tend to start the girls out extremely young with the older men in marriages & sex as a pattern.

Many who have gotten out of those polygamist communities say this issue is rampant within [Mormon] polygamy (as is incest)... I won't argue against that (at least the underage marriage/pregnancy), becuz it looks like that's at play in this compound which is why the kids were removed by authorities.

Apparently it's not "just sex" and since we don't live the life I guess we shouldn't speculate huh? But I don't support seperatist groups of any sort, whether polygamy is involved or not. THAT is what causes the big problems like we see with this group now because they have taken the idea of polygamy and created a religion/lifestyle/cult out of it.

 

[Nadiine]

Apparently it's not "just sex" and since we don't live the life I guess we shouldn't speculate huh? But I don't support seperatist groups of any sort, whether polygamy is involved or not. THAT is what causes the big problems like we see with this group now because they have taken the idea of polygamy and created a religion/lifestyle/cult out of it.

I'm not speculating with most all of what I've said here about polygamist communities/cults... this has been exposed and well documented by MANY eyewitnesses who lived the lifestyles themselves and got out.
They do have 20 underage girls who are pregnant and they did say some ARE married minors.

If you choose to reject the testimony of the people who have left those communities and work against it, that's fine. I don't reject it, I believe it's the truth and I think Warren Jeffs is living proof of it going in; they're just hard to catch legally.

I don't support separatist communities either -- altho I wouldn't say they're all "dangerous". I just personally believe God calls us to go INTO the world - not go grab an island somewhere and keep to ourselves in our little holy huddles. I don't see how it's biblical (then again, that's the least of the Mormon's doctrinal problems)

Lastly, it's not just these people that started this compound crap, the founder of Mormonism started this - along w/ Brigham Young. They were polygamists and promoted it in the religion they created.
They were also racists among other things. It baffles me how they got anyone to follow them at the start.

I think it's a known pattern of predators or perverts to hide behind religion and powerful positions of authority which get people's respect so that they can carry out what they want to do - nothing new under the sun

 

[psalms 91]

I actually disagree with that - even women who are FOR polygamy and in it admit that they suffer in it while they know he's "with" one of the others.

I think it's abusive to women period. Nevermind some of the results of the children who are raised into it as if it's good or normal.

I think we're having a problem assessing 'harm' in our culture today.
I'd also add that since God ordained 1 man with 1 woman as the prototype/model for marital union and the family, why are we thinking any other formula is fine and harmless?

It cant' be unless we decide God is actually wrong, wouldn't that be the case? Who defines harm?

OK lets look at that, God doesnt change the bible says that. So now, does that mean that David and Solomon went against God? If I remember correctly even the New Testament says let every bishop be the husband of one wife, dont think it says anything aboutn the others.

 

[Ginny]

Since they are part of society and not under the spell of a cult leader it's not a problem for me. Especially since there is still only one LEGAL wife they aren't breaking any laws. This sect isn't about polygamy as much as power and control.

You're right...it's about sick individuals that act like literal dogs in heat....the same dogs that can't commit their sexual lives to one person.

 

[ACougar]

What's good for the goose should be good for the gander...

If polygamy is such a great dea for the women involved, why aren't there any women who have multiple husbands in this sect?

 

[ladyt28]

Not really. Polygamy is just having more than one wife, it says nothing of children marrying young, to whom, or living a separatist lifestyle. I saw a middle aged woman interviewed on TV last week who lives a seemingly perfectly normal life. She has her own home and a job and happens to be the plural wife a a fella who takes turns at each wifes house. Since they are part of society and not under the spell of a cult leader it's not a problem for me. Especially since there is still only one LEGAL wife they aren't breaking any laws. This sect isn't about polygamy as much as power and control.

This doesn't sound much different from the man who is married with a family and has a girlfriend (or two) who also have his kids. At least these women all know about each other. I'm not saying I'm FOR it, I'm just saying it isn't as unusual-sounding as it might seem to be.