Polygamous-sect children ordered to stay in Texas custody

[Nadiine]

As I said earlier if it is not about religion then who gets to sit in the seat that defines brainwashing? Be careful lest you fall into this category. The constitution was written for a reason and the bill of rights as well, we had better be willing to fight for the unpopular or we will all lose it.

It's not about brainwashing either. It's about neither.

IF it was, they'de of been raided long, long ago for just that. They can't.
This didn't happen until after they got a phone call of someone claiming abuse. THEN they came in.

If they didn't go in there to deal with this, I'd like to know when they would? They probly went in to check into it and saw some signs that looked bad (maybe pregnant young girls) and decided to step in when they got little cooperation.

We don't know all the details, I"m sure we'll find out. IF there are kids who were being abused somehow, this would be a way they can find out.

As I said, this isn't good for the kids in EITHER setting. They aren't well off with parents of a polygamist cult or in foster care away from their moms (and whoever dad might be if they know that?)

 

[psalms 91]

It's not about brainwashing either. It's about neither.

IF it was, they'de of been raided long, long ago for just that. They can't.
This didn't happen until after they got a phone call of someone claiming abuse. THEN they came in.

If they didn't go in there to deal with this, I'd like to know when they would? They probly went in to check into it and saw some signs that looked bad (maybe pregnant young girls) and decided to step in when they got little cooperation.

We don't know all the details, I"m sure we'll find out. IF there are kids who were being abused somehow, this would be a way they can find out.

As I said, this isn't good for the kids in EITHER setting. They aren't well off with parents of a polygamist cult or in foster care away from their moms (and whoever dad might be if they know that?)

If thats the case I hope they dont walk into a housing project or they might see the same things and empty it out.

 

[ladyt28]

If thats the case I hope they dont walk into a housing project or they might see the same things and empty it out.

If that housing project lives as a unified compound with a single mindset involving excessive control and purposeful exploitation of vulnerable children, then I pray they DO "empty it out".

 

[Caitlin.ann]

If that housing project lives as a unified compound with a single mindset involving excessive control and purposeful exploitation of vulnerable children, then I pray they DO "empty it out".

Agreed.

 

[psalms 91]

If that housing project lives as a unified compound with a single mindset involving excessive control and purposeful exploitation of vulnerable children, then I pray they DO "empty it out".

Again the issue is bigger than that, it really does go to religious freedom. Would you ay the same thing if it were an Amish community? They condone underage marriage, they only send their chil;dren to the eigth grade. They are strict and work their children hard. Or does it make a diofference because it is a group that we really dont like or agree with,

 

[Nadiine]

If that housing project lives as a unified compound with a single mindset involving excessive control and purposeful exploitation of vulnerable children, then I pray they DO "empty it out".

that's my worry exactly! They were saying the kids weren't even able to identify their parents -- I guess they didn't know their last names?
multiple dads, etc.

This is not just a normal case where we should all fear that the cops are going to bust down the doors of a normal family eating dinner together and roust up the kids & haul them away.
& they have taken kids away from parents who showed to be a danger to the kids - OR if they were arrested for illegal activities for the child's safety.

 

[Nadiine]

that's my worry exactly! They were saying the kids weren't even able to identify their parents -- I guess they didn't know their last names?
multiple dads, etc.

This is not just a normal case where we should all fear that the cops are going to bust down the doors of a normal family eating dinner together and roust up the kids & haul them away.
& they have taken kids away from parents who showed to be a danger to the kids - OR if they were arrested for illegal activities for the child's safety.

additionally, they even take kids away from a parent who doesn't keep their house clean enough.

If a parent's house is too dirty/messy, they'll take the kids till the parent cleans the house up & keeps it that way.
It's serious business when raising kids; a responsibility

 

[psalms 91]

You are rtight Nadine, where does the line get drawn? Will it be when the state says we will raise your children, we cant trust parents to do it right? You cant correct children, you could get them taken because your house isnt clean, you could get them taken on false reports, you could have a lot of things happen so maybe the state will one day just say we will raise them, safer that way.

 

[Morcova]

Maybe because it was/is a seperate community and not a family home. What they have done there is whiolesale and violates every principle of individual freedom. I would agree if they had investigated individuals but to remove a whole community? I could compare that to the Nazis, think abiout it.

Of course you could compare it to the Nazi's. It's a common tactic of people who lack a coherent argument to compare people that they disagree with to Nazi's. It takes an impressive level of disconnect to compare this to a town. This was not a town, unless we are now claiming that the Branch Davidian compound outside of Waco was a town.

Is that what we are doing now?

If this is a town as you insist upon calling it, could you please tell us who the elected officials are?

 

[Morcova]

Interesting, I believe the Homeland Security Act uses the same reasoning, you know where they can hold people and not charge them, listen in on phone calls and your e mails, check up on your computer usage. Do you get the idea that what may be unpopular group of society still need their rights protected or we will all lose them?

Go ahead and cite for us which part of the HSA uses that same reasoning.

 

[Morcova]

This discussion is interesting. What if one of you were the government deciding who was being brainwashed? Do you still want government involving itself in religion or any other area that it jas no legitimate interest in? This is simply a case of hysteria run amuck and not properly handled. Everyone that is not charged should sue the great state of Texas and judicial orders should come down ensureing the rights of every citizen of Texas since the constitution is doing such a poor job

Ok Bill just to get it out of the way which of these do you have issues with.

1. Incest
2. Forced marriages.
3. Rape.
4. Pedophilla

Just go ahead and tell us which of these are ok and which aren't.

 

[ladyt28]

Just to clarify: when references are made to "children being removed because of a dirty home", we are NOT talking about just a bit of clutter. It has to be FILTHY to the point of being a health hazard. We are talking about carpets being squishy from animal feces and urine, cockroaches covering kitchen counters, sinks full of every pot/pan/dish in the home encrusted with left-over food, refrigerators full of moldy and rotting food, toilets and tubs not being fit for a human to get near let alone use; things of that nature. And before a child is removed, a petition goes to court where a judge could very well rule that the family gets a chance to work with Protective Services to clean the place up before removal has to be considered.

I'll tell you what, from what I've seen working as a Children's Foster Care worker in the past and continuing to work within an agency that has this responsibility - the pendulum swings full-tilt "remove first, ask questions later" until there is enough stink, then it goes full-tilt "prevent removal at all costs" until a child dies while an investigation is open. There just doesn't seem to be a middle path. I never understood that until I saw all of the politics involved - namely family court judges who are up for election and attorneys who grandstand (for either side).

 

[Nadiine]

Just to clarify: when references are made to "children being removed because of a dirty home", we are NOT talking about just a bit of clutter. It has to be FILTHY to the point of being a health hazard. We are talking about carpets being squishy from animal feces and urine, cockroaches covering kitchen counters, sinks full of every pot/pan/dish in the home encrusted with left-over food, refrigerators full of moldy and rotting food, toilets and tubs not being fit for a human to get near let alone use; things of that nature. And before a child is removed, a petition goes to court where a judge could very well rule that the family gets a chance to work with Protective Services to clean the place up before removal has to be considered.

I'll tell you what, from what I've seen working as a Children's Foster Care worker in the past and continuing to work within an agency that has this responsibility - the pendulum swings full-tilt "remove first, ask questions later" until there is enough stink, then it goes full-tilt "prevent removal at all costs" until a child dies while an investigation is open. There just doesn't seem to be a middle path. I never understood that until I saw all of the politics involved - namely family court judges who are up for election and attorneys who grandstand (for either side).

absolutely. I've heard the same things.

It's a catch 22, if you leave them and then find out later that there WAS horrible abuse going on, or they do die or end up hospitalized, you're condemned for not acting quick enough when you saw red flags.

if you run in without the death, hospitalization and remove them, you're the evil system out to get people and can be sued silly.

This is the problem going on - you can't win unless you have a crystal ball & know the future and make perfect decisions in every single case.

Politics are most definitely in play with these issues of seizure. Authorities get elected and they don't want bad press, so they either turn a blind eye to things or they act and take the risk of career ruination and PRAY they were right.

How do you get kids to open up & talk to outsiders if they're being molested? I'd think they'de feel less afraid or intimidated if they were away from their parents...
This isn't cut & dry imho.

oh, by the way on an episode of Cops I had seen where the dad didn't have much food in the fridge at all, the kids were hungry & the place was a total sty. The cops warned him that they could take the kids away if he didn't clean up his act etc.
They also brought him bags of groceries (out of their own $) to help him feed the kids. But for that, they could of been taken away.

 

[immersedingrace]

Again the issue is bigger than that, it really does go to religious freedom. Would you ay the same thing if it were an Amish community? They condone underage marriage, they only send their chil;dren to the eigth grade. They are strict and work their children hard. Or does it make a diofference because it is a group that we really dont like or agree with,

The Amish marriages aren't usually arranged. They aren't usually married at 13-14 year olds. They may marry younger than the norm, but they aren't forced into it and they are usually married to someone of a similar age. There is a difference. In addition, the Amish allow their children around 16 to actually go out and experience the modern world. They are allowed to drive, dress in modern clothes, go out to party and they are allowed to do so for many years and then come back to the Amish lifestyle if they hadn't taken their vow to the church before leaving. Even if they did take the vow, if they repent, they are STILL allowed to go back home without any ill effects. When they break the law, they are held accountable to it. The law, as it stands, give the Amish the right to only send their children to the eighth grade, however, if the child wishes to go further during their adolescent years, they could do so. The Amish aren't in anyway comparable to this sect.

 

[immersedingrace]

additionally, they even take kids away from a parent who doesn't keep their house clean enough.

If a parent's house is too dirty/messy, they'll take the kids till the parent cleans the house up & keeps it that way.
It's serious business when raising kids; a responsibility

This is only the case when the childs health or the average persons health would be in danger. It's not just about messiness or the toys not being put away. It's about dog feces or dirty diapers lying around; food not being properly disposed of, knives left on the floor, etc.

 

[Crazy Liz]

additionally, they even take kids away from a parent who doesn't keep their house clean enough.

If a parent's house is too dirty/messy, they'll take the kids till the parent cleans the house up & keeps it that way.
It's serious business when raising kids; a responsibility

Yeah right.

 

[Caitlin.ann]

Yeah right.

Raising kids ISN'T a responsibility?

 

[Crazy Liz]

Raising kids ISN'T a responsibility?

HUH?

 

[Caitlin.ann]

additionally, they even take kids away from a parent who doesn't keep their house clean enough.

If a parent's house is too dirty/messy, they'll take the kids till the parent cleans the house up & keeps it that way.
It's serious business when raising kids; a responsibility

Yeah right.

Raising kids ISN'T a responsibility?

What I placed in bold is what I meant.

 

[psalms 91]

The Amish marriages aren't usually arranged. They aren't usually married at 13-14 year olds. They may marry younger than the norm, but they aren't forced into it and they are usually married to someone of a similar age. There is a difference. In addition, the Amish allow their children around 16 to actually go out and experience the modern world. They are allowed to drive, dress in modern clothes, go out to party and they are allowed to do so for many years and then come back to the Amish lifestyle if they hadn't taken their vow to the church before leaving. Even if they did take the vow, if they repent, they are STILL allowed to go back home without any ill effects. When they break the law, they are held accountable to it. The law, as it stands, give the Amish the right to only send their children to the eighth grade, however, if the child wishes to go further during their adolescent years, they could do so. The Amish aren't in anyway comparable to this sect.

Agreement with beliefs has absoplutely nothing to do with my stance, it is the violation of the Bill of Rights as well as the constitutional issues that bother me, The precedent being set. False calls, mass roundup of innocent and guilty, these are things that should concern everyone.