Polygamous-sect children ordered to stay in Texas custody

[Nadiine]

This discussion is interesting. What if one of you were the government deciding who was being brainwashed? Do you still want government involving itself in religion or any other area that it jas no legitimate interest in? This is simply a case of hysteria run amuck and not properly handled. Everyone that is not charged should sue the great state of Texas and judicial orders should come down ensureing the rights of every citizen of Texas since the constitution is doing such a poor job

Well again, like I said before, I'm not asking the state to step in and break up people who live in communes or compounds or decide who's brainwashed.

My statements have always been and only been on the illegality of the Polygamy which is punishable by law and COULD be broken up by law enforcement.... and should have been when they found out about it earlier on.

The rest of my discourse on this subject is only making my personal assessments as to cult compounds & those who live in them.
I've never asked that govt. step in and dissrupt people of any religion becuz of their religion; only illegal activity done within that religion/group.

 

[psalms 91]

Well again, like I said before, I'm not asking the state to step in and break up people who live in communes or compounds or decide who's brainwashed.

My statements have always been and only been on the illegality of the Polygamy which is punishable by law and COULD be broken up by law enforcement.... and should have been when they found out about it earlier on.

The rest of my discourse on this subject is only making my personal assessments as to cult compounds & those who live in them.
I've never asked that govt. step in and dissrupt people of any religion becuz of their religion; only illegal activity done within that religion/group.

Perhaps not but when they are to lazy to investigate properly or disregard the constitution it affects all of us. As far as marriages go I heard in this thread earlier or the other one that the rest were concubines since the state will not recognize more than one marriage, so my question is that if they were not legally married are they guilty of polygamy or just adultry? If they busted up every home that was adultress there wouldnt be enough foster families

 

[Crazy Liz]

They don't have birth certificates either unfortunately. My fiance has told me some are beleived to have been trafficked down here from Canada. Anyone have anything to add on that?

Unfortunately even the ones under six are still possibly subject to abuse. One woman on tv who escaped from a similar compound stated they start out young before the children can remember, as in first born. The father would spank the baby and hold it under a water faucet until it didn't have any energy left to cry. Thats how they "broke" them from the start and how they taught the children (especially girls) to fear men.

This is only rumor and speculation. I haven't seen anything in the news about this sort of evidence in the Texas case. If there were, don't you think it would be quoted in the court documents?

All I've seen is allegations of forced marriages of girls after puberty and indoctrinating boys to become perpetrators. I agree that's worthy of investigation, and I wouldn't object to immediate removal of underage girls in such marriages or those at risk, or of investigation of other allegations. I just think the wholesale removal of all the children before investigating specific risks seems excessive.

As of today, I read the judge has allowed women breastfeeding babies 1 year old and under can stay with their children, and mothers of children 2 and under can stay in the same towns where their children are being held.

Does this mean that mothers of children over 2 are not allowed to be in the same town as their children? That kind of restrictions on parents' freedom of movement is unheard-of.

 

[psalms 91]

Well again, like I said before, I'm not asking the state to step in and break up people who live in communes or compounds or decide who's brainwashed.

My statements have always been and only been on the illegality of the Polygamy which is punishable by law and COULD be broken up by law enforcement.... and should have been when they found out about it earlier on.

The rest of my discourse on this subject is only making my personal assessments as to cult compounds & those who live in them.
I've never asked that govt. step in and dissrupt people of any religion becuz of their religion; only illegal activity done within that religion/group.

Adultry is also illegial yet I do not see children removed and a community busted up over that.

 

[Nadiine]

I just heard on Fox news that there was sexual abuse going on, underage marriage and on the radio they said there were 20 underage girls pregnant so far.

This sort of thing seems to be commonplace with Mormon polygamist communities as people have documented after coming out of it. There seems to be a pattern with them in this and I have no doubt that the authorities know this and it weighed in on their decision to take the kids.

 

[psalms 91]

This is only rumor and speculation. I haven't seen anything in the news about this sort of evidence in the Texas case. If there were, don't you think it would be quoted in the court documents?

All I've seen is allegations of forced marriages of girls after puberty and indoctrinating boys to become perpetrators. I agree that's worthy of investigation, and I wouldn't object to immediate removal of underage girls in such marriages or those at risk, or of investigation of other allegations. I just think the wholesale removal of all the children before investigating specific risks seems excessive.

As of today, I read the judge has allowed women breastfeeding babies 1 year old and under can stay with their children, and mothers of children 2 and under can stay in the same towns where their children are being held.

Does this mean that mothers of children over 2 are not allowed to be in the same town as their children? That kind of restrictions on parents' freedom of movement is unheard-of.

So were all the other things that have been taken away from the Constitution. This is not about anything but individual and constitutional rights, to broaden it further just muddies the waters. Let them do a proper investigation with as little disruption as possible. To the best of my knowledge the objective of CWS in every state is to maintain the family if at all possible, why is it that I see just the opposite in this case?

 

[Nadiine]

So were all the other things that have been taken away from the Constitution. This is not about anything but individual and constitutional rights, to broaden it further just muddies the waters. Let them do a proper investigation with as little disruption as possible. To the best of my knowledge the objective of CWS in every state is to maintain the family if at all possible, why is it that I see just the opposite in this case?

is a family one that consists of polygamy though? Is a polygamist marriage an actual family?

 

[psalms 91]

I just heard on Fox news that there was sexual abuse going on, underage marriage and on the radio they said there were 20 underage girls pregnant so far.

This sort of thing seems to be commonplace with Mormon polygamist communities as people have documented after coming out of it. There seems to be a pattern with them in this and I have no doubt that the authorities know this and it weighed in on their decision to take the kids.

By what states definition is underage? Each state is different. That is still beside the point, 20 out of over 400? Do you see the abuse of power here? Even if you are on the opposite side of this issue surely you can feel for the mothers, what of those who are not pregnant and are still forced to be removed from their families. What of the women? What of the innocent men? Are they just to lazy or to imcompetant to do their jobs right?

 

[Crazy Liz]

How soon we forget that these people are not even being cooperative in answering questions. I don't know the details, but I would assume honesty would be a big deal in the "compound", especially if that meant trying to speed up this whole issue.

The statements of CPS workers I've read in the media seem pretty equivocal about whether they are actually being uncooperative or lying. Let's say a 4 year-old tells the CPS worker he has 3 mothers. Facts like that could easily underlie the carefully-worded statements of the CPS workers to the court.

However, another story I read claims that about 2-3 years ago Jeffs expelled a number of men from the FLDS and "reassigned" their wives and children to other men. Again, if their prophet says, "This is your new daddy," how is a kid going to answer a social worker's question, "Who is your REAL daddy?"

The simple fact that these people use terms for family relationships in different ways than the social workers could cause enough confusion for someone just to throw up their hands and suggest wholesale DNA testing.

What surprises me the most is seeing so many simplistic responses to a very complicated situation.

 

[Crazy Liz]

Adultry is also illegial yet I do not see children removed and a community busted up over that.

Actually, it's not in most states, and even in states where it is or has been in the past, children of adulterous parents have never been considered crime victims.

 

[Nadiine]

I'm in between 2 or 3 threads on this same subject, so I'm losing track of which ones are which lol - so sorry if I get confused and repeat something I said here.

I'd make the note in regular society, people who are found unfit to parent or have kids in a harmful (threatening) environment where the parent/parents are arrested for crimes, they do take the kids away & put them into foster care until things are worked out for the child.
This may be something similar with polygamy - but again, they should have handled the polygamy they knew was going on long ago instead of having to take this drastic method.

 

[psalms 91]

The statements of CPS workers I've read in the media seem pretty equivocal about whether they are actually being uncooperative or lying. Let's say a 4 year-old tells the CPS worker he has 3 mothers. Facts like that could easily underlie the carefully-worded statements of the CPS workers to the court.

However, another story I read claims that about 2-3 years ago Jeffs expelled a number of men from the FLDS and "reassigned" their wives and children to other men. Again, if their prophet says, "This is your new daddy," how is a kid going to answer a social worker's question, "Who is your REAL daddy?"

The simple fact that these people use terms for family relationships in different ways than the social workers could cause enough confusion for someone just to throw up their hands and suggest wholesale DNA testing.

What surprises me the most is seeing so many simplistic responses to a very complicated situation.

Perhaps because I tend to cherish my constitution as well as my individual rights, a lot more than it seems some do. This country is becoming more and more a police state and people just merrily go along with it.

 

[Crazy Liz]

is a family one that consists of polygamy though? Is a polygamist marriage an actual family?

How do you define a family?

Was Jacob's family in the Bible an actual family?

 

[psalms 91]

Actually, it's not in most states, and even in states where it is or has been in the past, children of adulterous parents have never been considered crime victims.

Neither have children of alcoholics but I would be willing to bet that there is abuse. The real point is that whatever their beliefs they have a right to taise their children as they see fit with whatever beliefs they wish to instill until they break the law and even then it must be shown that they broke the law, in order to remove there must be probable cause, to arrest there must be evidence, this is a witchhunt

 

[Nadiine]

Neither have children of alcoholics but I would be willing to bet that there is abuse. The real point is that whatever their beliefs they have a right to taise their children as they see fit with whatever beliefs they wish to instill until they break the law and even then it must be shown that they broke the law, in order to remove there must be probable cause, to arrest there must be evidence, this is a witchhunt

but they're all in one big compound... and it's alot of kids of who knows who's...???
it's not like this is a normal situation of a general household on a residential block. It's a large mass that they have to unsort.
They're claiming 20 underage girls are pregnant & some minors are married to older men...

I just think this is a different circumstance than a normal every day situation that law enforcement normally goes thru.

I don't like it either - but it in no way makes me worry that they're going to come to my house & raid it either.
I think the majority of civilians have nothing to fear of their rights being violated in this way - this is a polygamist compound.

 

[Crazy Liz]

I'm in between 2 or 3 threads on this same subject, so I'm losing track of which ones are which lol - so sorry if I get confused and repeat something I said here.

I'd make the note in regular society, people who are found unfit to parent or have kids in a harmful (threatening) environment where the parent/parents are arrested for crimes, they do take the kids away & put them into foster care until things are worked out for the child.
This may be something similar with polygamy - but again, they should have handled the polygamy they knew was going on long ago instead of having to take this drastic method.

As has been posted above, these families did not violate the polygamy (bigamy) laws of their states, since LEGALLY, a man is married to only one woman at a time.

There are a lot of problems with legal definitions of marriage in our society, especially as it becomes more and more pluralistic. We have federal and state DOMAs, and we have regular fundamentalist Christians proposing that marriage should be treated as a religious institution, not a legal one. Some are advocating religious marriages without state licenses for various reasons. Surely you've seen the threads in GT about what makes a marriage, according to the Bible? The idea that marriage according to the Bible and marriage according to the law are two different things has been a topic of discussion among Christians for years. I used to be in favor of unbundling the concept of marriage for different purposes, but I'm beginning to think it's better to regularize relationships that have some, but not all the characteristics of marriage. I see pros and cons to both sides.

The point, for purposes of this thread, though, is that since they didn't get state marriage licenses for the subsequent marriages, have they actually violated the state's bigamy laws?

This becomes even more complicated when you take into consideration that Texas and Utah are two of a handful of states that still recognizes marriages without a license on ceremony - so-called common-law marriages - as legal marriages, at least under some circumstances. However, bigamy laws are usually written so that instead of being bigamous, a relationship that otherwise would be a common-law marriage is not considered a marriage at all if one of the spouses is legally married to someone else.

 

[Crazy Liz]

but they're all in one big compound... and it's alot of kids of who knows who's...???
it's not like this is a normal situation of a general household on a residential block. It's a large mass that they have to unsort.
They're claiming 20 underage girls are pregnant & some minors are married to older men...

I just think this is a different circumstance than a normal every day situation that law enforcement normally goes thru.

I don't like it either - but it in no way makes me worry that they're going to come to my house & raid it either.
I think the majority of civilians have nothing to fear of their rights being violated in this way - this is a polygamist compound.

I think Bill has a point.

First they came for the Communists,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me,
and by that time there was no one
left to speak up for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller

 

[Nadiine]

I think Bill has a point.

First they came for the Communists,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me,
and by that time there was no one
left to speak up for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller

You guys keep going to religion - this has nothing to do w/ religion, it has to do with POLYGAMY - ILLEGAL MARRIAGES.
This isn't about Mormonism - or religion, but kids who are at a cult compound with underage girls pregnant, claims of undocumented children with no birth records, not even knowing their own last names and supposed underage marriages - I heard sexual abuse, but I would need to hear the specific evidence of that.

Lets not forget Warren Jeffs - this falls on the heels of his guilt for underage forced marriage....

There's concern for these kids in this due to the nature of polygamy in those groups.

To turn it into something else is imho, incorrect. Those people were allowed to continue living in that compound even committing the polygamy - they didn't act UNTIL they recieved word that someone was abused.
(false or not, the raid didn't occur UNTIL someone's safety was involved).

No, I don't accept that this is about religion, they would of been raided long before if it were.

 

[psalms 91]

but they're all in one big compound... and it's alot of kids of who knows who's...???
it's not like this is a normal situation of a general household on a residential block. It's a large mass that they have to unsort.
They're claiming 20 underage girls are pregnant & some minors are married to older men...

I just think this is a different circumstance than a normal every day situation that law enforcement normally goes thru.

I don't like it either - but it in no way makes me worry that they're going to come to my house & raid it either.
I think the majority of civilians have nothing to fear of their rights being violated in this way - this is a polygamist compound.

Really? This is different? What about the woman who doesnt know who the father is? What about any population base, you would find 20 pregnant underage girls I am sure. If the girls are around 16 the only difference is that they didnt get court approval or it would be legal. You had better be worried. In Germany it started with the Jewish, a very unpopular group and it was ok and then it expanded. Much like what has been happening to our rights and freedoms because we go along all in the name of a false security.

 

[psalms 91]

You guys keep going to religion - this has nothing to do w/ religion, it has to do with POLYGAMY - ILLEGAL MARRIAGES.
This isn't about Mormonism - or religion, but kids who are at a cult compound with underage girls pregnant, claims of undocumented children with no birth records, not even knowing their own last names and supposed underage marriages - I heard sexual abuse, but I would need to hear the specific evidence of that.

Lets not forget Warren Jeffs - this falls on the heels of his guilt for underage forced marriage....

There's concern for these kids in this due to the nature of polygamy in those groups.

To turn it into something else is imho, incorrect. Those people were allowed to continue living in that compound even committing the polygamy - they didn't act UNTIL they recieved word that someone was abused.
(false or not, the raid didn't occur UNTIL someone's safety was involved).

No, I don't accept that this is about religion, they would of been raided long before if it were.

As I said earlier if it is not about religion then who gets to sit in the seat that defines brainwashing? Be careful lest you fall into this category. The constitution was written for a reason and the bill of rights as well, we had better be willing to fight for the unpopular or we will all lose it.