Poll: When Are The Orthodox Jews Saved?

[Douggg]

Do dispens believe Zechariah 12:10?

I am certain that they do.

 

[jgr]

I am certain that they do.

And do dispens believe that the Jews are saved in Zechariah 12:10?

 

[Douggg]

And do dispens believe that the Jews are saved in Zechariah 12:10?

You will have to ask a dispensationalist for their answer.

As far as the verse, it is a progressive event to take place during the second half of the seven years, culminating with Jesus's return to this earth.

 

[jgr]

You will have to ask a dispensationalist for their answer.

As far as the verse, it is a progressive event to take place during the second half of the seven years, culminating with Jesus's return to this earth.

You said:

"I don't think anyone holding the dispensational method of understanding the bible are saying them you are referring to were saved."

You now say:

"You will have to ask a dispensationalist for their answer."

So you in fact do not know what dispens believe about Zechariah 12:10.

See post 178 for what they believe.

 

[Douggg]

You said:

"I don't think anyone holding the dispensational method of understanding the bible are saying them you are referring to were saved."

referring to your statement - "Thus Judas, Caiaphas, and the Sanhedrin will be saved."

You now say:

"You will have to ask a dispensationalist for their answer."

regarding the dispensationalists interpretation of Zechariah 12:10

So you in fact do not know what dispens believe about Zechariah 12:10.

See post 178 for what they believe.

You should ask them. I commented on how I interprete Zechariah 12:10.

 

[jgr]

referring to your statement - "Thus Judas, Caiaphas, and the Sanhedrin will be saved."



regarding the dispensationalists interpretation of Zechariah 12:10


You should ask them. I commented on how I interprete Zechariah 12:10.

No need to ask them. Post 178 gives the answer that they're already provided many times over many years.

Since you continuously insist that you're nondispen, then your "interprete" of Zechariah 12:10 is unreliable as a dispen interpretation.

To get accurate dispen information, I go to recognized dispen sources.

 

[Timtofly]

Paul's salvation doctrine won't apply in the Tribulation which is the age to come, just like the Law of Moses is no longer applicable for us in but now time period, but it did apply in time past.

Anyway, no one is saying here you are saved by works in the age to come, but rather you need to show your faith by your works which is what James is saying in James 2. It is ultimately your faith that saves you.

The point is the church is not even going to be here. The whole book of Hebrews has been made complete. At the 6th Seal event, FAITH is made complete, and the restrainer is taken away. It will be by sight and obedience only after the 6th Seal. Armageddon is a wrap up of Adam's sinful flesh. The one's with the mark, and are not even in the Lamb's book of life. The mark is given, at the same instance their name is removed from the Lamb's book of life. It is a conscious choice. Even more conscious than accepting the Atonement by Faith in the current age. That conscious decision about the mark will have physically cosmetic proof. In today's society being a Christian is not always physically evident. Even the world does not distinguish such a role, because good has become evil, and evil has become good. There is no moral distinction any more, which is a sad way to define the church these days.

 

[Timtofly]

Yes, what I meant is faith in what God commanded.

When he command us not to take the mark of the beast during the Tribulation, otherwise we will not be saved, we show our faith by obeying him there.

The only act of faith will be asking for one's head to be cut off. That is the only way not to make a decision that results in God branding you with the mark and removing your name from the Lamb's book of life. God is the only one who can accomplish that process. The receiving the mark conscious decision is also the act that removes one's name. Accepting the Atonement was the conscious act that keeps your name in the Lamb's book of life. All names were placed in the Lamb's book of life at the Cross and sealed in that act prior to creation. Only the opening of the 7th Seal will allow any names to be removed. That is why the Second Coming is the 6th Seal. The church is completed and glorified even before the 7th Seal is opened. Once the church is glorified, that is it. No more additions or removal from the church. They also remain in Paradise and only observers of the next 6 years of life on earth. They even watch as Jesus destroys the last of Adam's flesh at the battle of Armageddon.

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus himself said during the Tribulation, one must endure to the end to be saved. (Matthew 24:13)

Elsewhere, he also said if you, as a gentile, don't feed and give shelter to the persecuted Jews during the Tribulation, you will also be cast to the lake of fire (Matthew 25:31-46)

The Jews are the ones who endure. The church is covered by the blood of the Lamb. This is a physical fact, not a spiritual one. Is it that obvious that those who are not killed actually remain alive? If one is dead they are dead. If one avoids death, they are not dead. Avoid conditions where someone is pointing a gun at you. Death in the 4th Seal still ends in the saved going to heaven and the lost still going to sheol if they die. After the Second Coming, the 6th Seal, the Lamb will be on the earth and physically carrying out the final harvest. There is no avoiding death when the Lamb indicates one is a sheep and an angel removes the soul from Adam's sinful flesh body. Endurance is over at that point and a Jews eternal existence has been determined as a sheep. One's life as a descendant of Adam is over at that point. Eternal "salvation" is complete. Not part of the church, it will be the resurrection of Revelation 20:4. The millennium will be a totally different situation than now and the time of tribulation.

 

[BABerean2]

The Jews are the ones who endure. The church is covered by the blood of the Lamb.

The form of Dual Covenant Theology found above is not found in the Bible.


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

Nobody comes to salvation by their own works.
They never have, and they never will.

All of the Apostles, except John, were murdered for our faith.


.

 

[Timtofly]

What you apparently don't understand is that it was only part of Israel that was blinded back then and part of Israel that has continued to be blinded "because of unbelief" but Israelites have been getting saved throughout the last 2,000 years. Why are you postponing their salvation when a good number of them have been getting saved, including the remnant that Paul mentioned were saved in his day?

What no one will give up is the mechanics of time. Every generation in the last 1990 years has had to let go. Obviously some did not because that is what theology is. Theology freezes that generation in time and keeps that generation in reality longer than necessary. Does any one really like or accept change? Humanity is so diverse and that is why society cannot be frozen in time.

That is the error of preterist and historist. But amil is not immune as they (some of them) think a future millennium is happening now for the very same reason preterist and historist do. The future millennium can only happen after the Second Coming, not the first coming.

Holding first century Jews in an historical bubble and applying it today, is as wrong as saying sin was eradicated in the 1st century. It is now that the church is in a position of a hot seat, like 1st century Jews, and they refuse to admit that fact. The church is the corrupt vinyard stewards and the Jews are the lost (Gentiles) of today. It is a complete role reversal, and it seems preterist and historist are so blind to that fact, it is uncanny.

So saying the church is still attempting to make the Jews jealous is very misleading as that could only apply to the 1st century. This time it will be too late for the church to do anything when Christ is physically on earth at the 6th Seal. The church will be gone, and theology left behind. Yes, it will only be Jews and Gentiles (the Nations) left on earth, and not immediately destroyed as some indicate. The only immediate change will be the lack of the church and the Holy Spirit on earth. That is enough destruction for one day, in itself.

The church will not be a branch broken off at the Second Coming. This time works will be burned up and only what one did for God will be what is left to lay at His feet. For the church, the heavens will dissolve and Paradise will be complete, and works will be refined in fire. So there is the application of all being burned up, even for the church. Only that which was done in obedience to God will remain eternal.

 

[Timtofly]

It was OT prophecy that a remnant of both the house of Judah and the house of Israel would believe on Christ Jesus. But the purpose of the sealing by The Holy Spirit shown in Rev.9 is against the deception for the very end of this world, for that event starts within the 5th trumpet - 1st woe period. Jesus returns on the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe per Rev.11. So what time must the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period represent?

The Holy Spirit is not the seal in Revelation 7. The seal is placed by angels, as symbolic of God, yes, but these 144k are changed bodily as well as sealed, because that is the type of seal they received. They cannot ever die, because even they are removed from Adam's sinful flesh and given incorruptible bodies while alive. The act of the seal was not death, but they were changed like those changed in the air as the church in the rapture at the Second Coming at the 6th Seal. The 144k are not the church, nor represent the church. They are changed living Jews. They are now the Lamb's personal disciples. They are the only "saints". This time is the harvest of souls, death. It is not about staying alive until the 7th Trumpet.

The sooner one leaves this corruptible body the better. By the time Satan is put in charge, angels will not be so kind. One will have to experience the moment getting their head chopped off, and then the angel will transport their soul. Enduring to the end is happening this year. After the Second Coming will be too late. Now is the time to live wisely, and not do foolish stuff that will kill you. Soon will be a war unprecedented in history. It will kill 25% of humanity. That will also be an endurance until death. Salvation is still accepting the Atonement, not avoiding physical death. If one is dead before the Second Coming, they will not be chosen as a sheep, that is the the chance of eternal life on earth. But being chosen is not a conscious act. The Lamb still decides who is a sheep and who is a goat. Sheep and wheat will endure till the Second Coming. That is obvious, as only a living human can be chosen.

No one is resurrected from death at the Second Coming just to live on earth during the Tribulation. That would violate Atonement and who is part of the church. Putting the Second Coming at the battle of Armageddon also violates all Scripture. The Lamb already having been present prior to Satan's 42 months. The sheep and wheat already harvested in the Trumpets and Thunders prior to Satan's 42 months. The church and Satan are not co-stewards of the vineyard. That should be obvious, but ironically it is not.

Amil think Satan is bound now, but Satan was never a steward of the vineyard. Satan never owned the kingdoms. The nations, Israel, and the church only played the harlot with Satan, causing Satan to think he was in control. Satan is not bound now, because some church, the harlot part, has always been in bed with Satan who was never bound. The Holy Spirit restrains Satan, but only if the church does her job. The Holy Spirit only works through humanity not separate from humanity.

 

[Timtofly]

Yeah it seems like the blindness is starting to get lifted since Israel was reborn and I think that's when Messianic Judaism started taking off and then there's Jews who have just up and converted to Christianity, Jews for Jesus and such, and a lot of Jews have been reading Isaiah 53 and until they are told it's from THEIR Tanakh they often think it's new testament writing, when they realize, no it's Isaiah, that's been bringing a lot to faith. There's going to be 144,000 male Jewish virgins so.. gotta start converting some Jews to the gospel

What do you mean "going to be"? They are alive today and either taking classes online or sitting and playing games on their computers.

Isaiah 11:6, Matthew 19:14, Mark 10:14, and Luke 18:16

 

[Timtofly]

Silly me. I thought there was neither male nor female in the church (Galatians 3:28), but it looks like being male (and a virgin) is a big advantage over being female when it comes to someone's chances of being part of the body of Christ.

I'm being facetious to make a point in case you couldn't tell. Have you ever considered that it's speaking there of believers who have spiritual purity rather than sexual purity in Revelation 14:4? Should we really assume it's speaking literally of male virgins avoiding sexually promiscuous women there considering the figurative women mentioned in Revelation 12 and 17?

What sense would it make for male virgins to be singled out if it was speaking of sexual purity? Since when does sexual purity determine who has the seal of God? No, it has to be speaking figuratively of spiritual purity, otherwise it would violate the fact that there is neither male nor female in the church since we are all one in Christ Jesus (Gal 3:28). The 144,000 includes both males and females who have been made spiritually pure by the blood of Christ.

What is the point about being a disciple of the Lamb? Why is it only significant while the Lamb is present on the earth? Theology has a way of blinding a human to the actual truth. This is after the spiritual and physical is restored. At the 6th Seal the blinders are removed, and everything spiritual will be just as permanent as the physical. By that I mean, the physical will be permanent like the spiritual. In sinful nature's blinding view, we are backwards, thinking the spiritual is not concrete physical observation. Especially since the rest of creation (the spiritual part) remains behind a curtain of blindness. Thinking that the spiritual is just vapor and illusion out of reach, is thinking like a person deceived by Satan. Not that you do that. But if you turn God's Word into a spiritual application, that is what you are doing. You claim that literal people do not, or at the least, cannot be alive today that are the literal 144k. The church is literally not going to be on the earth after the 6th Seal. Yes, Jews and the Nations, not the church are those asking the question, "who can save us from God's wrath?". The church already knows that answer. If you do not know, then you are not a part of the church. And the only answer is the Atonement. It happened physically in 30AD. It happened literally before creation. The Atonement will not apply during the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Thunders. And will definitely not apply during the 42 months given to Satan and the 7 vials poured out on Satan's followers. The church will not be here at all during these times the Atonement does not apply.

 

[Timtofly]

I’m sure that you will have “A Case for Amillennialism” by Kim Riddlebarger in your bookshelf. Please read his chapter 14 again. I cannot say it any better so I will quote his concluding paragraph:

“Is there a future for ethnic Israel? Pauls answer was yes. And the presence of a believing remnant was proof. But the future salvation of Israel is not connected to a future millennial kingdom. It is connected to the end of the age. When all Israel is saved, the resurrection is at hand.”

Well the end of the amil age is the last 1000 years after the Second Coming. Ironic.

The age started when Adam ate, and will be concluded at the GWT.

Why is the millennium not it's own age? For the same reason the first Lord's Day is not completely understood as the first 1000 years of existence. Why is there not a single human who agrees on the finite aspect of creation? Much less the time of the beginning? Because Satan controls the knowledge of science and making the Bible only a spiritual application prevents the Bible from being an historical text.

Humans just want to make up their own history or they accept Satan's pagan view, which contradicts itself. Satan gives us the pagan spiritual history, along with the alleged concrete aspect of science. Even Satan caters to human diversity. But only God's Word can remain firm, and turning it into a spiritual quagmire does not help one bit, but it may get you on a lost person's favorable side. At what cost? It does not win them to Christ, but they have won you over to their view. The lost do embrace Satan's spiritual view, because it does not hold them responsible, nor outright contradicts their firm belief in physical concrete science. God's Word does, until we turn it into some vague private application.

 

[Timtofly]

I disagree with you and him about this.

I think it's necessary to take a closer look at Romans 9:6-8 to see what Paul is actually teaching there about the Israel of which not all are of Israel.

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

What I believe this is saying is that not all of ethnic Israel are part of the spiritual Israel of God. I'll explain how I come to that conclusion and what I mean by that exactly.

First, I notated the differences between the two Israels Paul mentioned. The text colored in red signifies the Israel of which not all of the Israel signified with the blue text are part. I'm going to call the Israel described with the red text "Spiritual Israel" and the other Israel signified with the blue text "Ethnic Israel".

Notice what Paul says about Spiritual Israel:

1. Not all of ethnic Israel are part of it.

2. Being part of it is not based on whether or not someone is a natural descendant of Abraham

3. The seed (children, descendants) are called in Isaac

4. It is comprised of the children of God

5. The ones counted as the seed of Spiritual Israel are "the children of the promise".


And here is what Paul says, in contrast, about ethnic Israel:

1. Not all of them are part of Spiritual Israel

2. Being natural descendants of Abraham does not make them part of Spiritual Israel

3. Being a natural descendant of ethnic Israel does not make them part of Spiritual Israel and does not make the children of God and of the promise.

So, I believe Paul made it very clear that one's nationality has nothing at all to do with being part of Spiritual Israel. This is where we differ. I think you are missing that he said that being a natural descendant of Abraham or of ethnic Israel is not a requirement for being part of Spiritual Israel. But, you make it a requirement. Please show me where you see Paul making that a requirement to be part of the Israel of which not all of Israel are part.

It is very important to interpret scripture with scripture whenever possible. And that is what I'm going to do here to show who the children of God and of the promise are that Paul was talking about who make up the Israel (Spiritual Israel) of which not all of Israel (ethnic Israel) are part.

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ...26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Just like in Romans 9:6-8, Paul indicates that being a child of God and of the promise has nothing to do with nationality or ethnicity ("there is neither Jew nor Greek"). But, your interpretation of Romans 9:6-8 says that it does depend on nationality of ethnicity. But, it clearly does not.

One last thing. What about Paul saying regarding the Israel of which not all of Israel are part: "In Isaac shall thy seed be called"? What does that mean? Again, we can use scripture to interpret scripture.

Galatians 4: 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

In this passage, Paul contrasts ethnic, earthly Jerusalem with "Jerusalem which is above", which is the heavenly Jerusalem which we become part of when we're saved (Heb 12:22-24). It is the heavenly Jerusalem "which is the mother of us all". And he also indicates that he is contrasting "the two covenants" which would be the old covenant and new covenant. No one was saved under the old covenant because the old covenant sacrifices "could never take away sins". All are saved under the new covenant of Christ's shed blood and "once for all" sacrifice. It has nothing to do with one's nationality or ethnicity whatsoever.

Notice Paul said in Galatians 4:28 that "we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise". Remember, in Romans 9:8 Paul said "They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed" and in Galatians 3:29 he said "if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise". That means Paul was saying in Galatians 4:28 "we brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise" because of our faith in Jesus Christ and not because of our nationality or ethnicity. So, that is what Paul meant in Romans 9:7 when he said "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called".

All believers, Jew or Gentiles, are part of the Israel of God.

Galatians 6:14 May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation. 16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule—to the Israel of God.

It is only ethnic Israel that enjoys the millennium.

All 3 of you describe the church very well, and even allow ethnic Israel to enjoy the church in Paradise.

That does not prove ethnic Israel does not get their 1000 year millennium. It just solves soteriology. How does soteriology explain ethnic Israel ruling the other nations with Christ in Jerusalem with an iron rod? How do other nations live hundreds of years in incorruptible bodies by means of soteriology? How do incorruptible body humans advance society for 900 years, expanding over all the earth to several dozen billion humans? Did soteriology change humanity in the last 200 years to increase the population to almost 8 billion, or was that science?

 

[Timtofly]

Dispen believes that the Jews who pierced Christ will be saved. (Zechariah 12:10)

Thus Judas, Caiaphas, and the Sanhedrin will be saved.

We'll hug 'em in heaven.

Notwithstanding John 17:12.

Matthew 27:25
25 All the people answered, “His blood is on us and on our children!”

Did God hold them or their descendants to this vow? Seems only their living descendants will benefit from God's removal of the vow.

Not withstanding, the Atonement was offered even to those speaking those words as 3000 were added to the church a few days later.

There is as much diversity in dispy land as amil land. Paul accepted dispensations. Ephesians is a letter from Paul that addresses dispensations. It should not be that hard to divide the historical content of God's Word into distinct periods of time. Only those stubborn to deny change are the hold out non-dispy people with their heads in the sand on things changing. Perhaps taking one's head out of the sand will be a climactic event itself?

This 8000 year age of reality has had several climactic changes:

Sin entered the world.

God destroyed that world with a Flood.

God called Abraham out of Ur.

Ishmael was born.

Jericho was destroyed.

The Cross.

The Second Coming.

The little season the last of humanity choose themselves between God and their ability to reject God.

God was in control and present during the 1000 years prior to the very first life changing event and the very last life changing event. The 6000 years between these two periods humanity lived by faith, and accepted a God that was not always present. The two times God was present with His chosen people, Israel, even they rejected God to his physical face. That humans can reject God even when God is present is not that hard to grasp. Adam and Eve were friends with God and daily visits with God. Even so during the last 1000 years, people will still not want to be a part of Who God is. Even perfection will not change that point.

 

[Timtofly]

And do dispens believe that the Jews are saved in Zechariah 12:10?

Do you reject Zechariah 12:10? Soteriology is an added interpretation, no?

 

[Timtofly]

No need to ask them. Post 178 gives the answer that they're already provided many times over many years.

Since you continuously insist that you're nondispen, then your "interprete" of Zechariah 12:10 is unreliable as a dispen interpretation.

To get accurate dispen information, I go to recognized dispen sources.

Then you seem to imply you will use the same interpretation to prove to other non accepters a mute point to carry on a meaningless series of posts. Any application is mere private interpretation, so what is the point of mere personal interpretation to prove any point whatsoever? Your point can only be an interpretation of their interpretation thus not only not about Scripture, but now 2 steps away from Scripture and the more posters the even further one gets from Scripture. At what point should this row of dominoes stop?

 

[Timtofly]

The form of Dual Covenant Theology found above is not found in the Bible.


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

Nobody comes to salvation by their own works.
They never have, and they never will.

All of the Apostles, except John, were murdered for our faith.

Your point is out of context:


10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven saying,

“Now have come God’s victory, power and kingship,
and the authority of his Messiah;
because the Accuser of our brothers,
who accuses them day and night before God,
has been thrown out!

11 “They defeated him because of the Lamb’s blood
and because of the message of their witness.
Even when facing death
they did not cling to life.

12 “Therefore, rejoice, heaven and you who live there!
But woe to you, land and sea,
for the Adversary has come down to you,
and he is very angry, because he knows that his time is short!”

This is the correct context. The church from Abel to the Second Coming, EVERYONE, all defeated Satan by the blood of the Lamb. Not humanity after the 6th Seal. Adam and Eve did not defeat Satan by the blood of the Lamb, or we were never told once in Scripture they did.

The church is gone during the Trumpets, Thunders, Satan's 42 months, the 7 vials, and the Millennium. No church on earth to defeat Satan with the blood of the Lamb, after the 6th Seal. The context is only from the time of Abel whom Cain killed, and any one alive who exercised the Faith of Hebrews 11. Abel is mentioned, so he is the first. This voice is proclaiming the entire history of the church (Hebrews 11), and the fact that now, the 7th Trumpet now, Satan is cast out of Heaven. An angel casts Satan out:

7 Next there was a battle in heaven — Mikha’el and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.
8 But it was not strong enough to win, so that there was no longer any place for them in heaven.
9 The great dragon was thrown out, that ancient serpent, also known as the Devil and Satan [the Adversary], the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.

Revelation 12:1-6 is the historical footnote, then the word "next" takes us back to the 7th Trumpet. The woe of the 7th Trumpet casting Satan out and bringing him to earth for the 42 months about to split the week of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet in half. The casting out of Satan is part of the celebration of the 7th Trumpet, but the 42 months now that Satan is confined to earth will prolong the sound of the 7th Trumpet.

The proclamation in your quote is the cry of the whole church from Abel to those alive this minute.

So calling my post dual covenant theology is mute. You yourself, in your quote, are trying to split the church up into a group of church members existing outside of the parameters of the church. The church does not cast Satan out of heaven. The church does not endure after the 6th Seal by the blood of the Lamb, and most certainly the 7th Trumpet does not happen at the same time as the 6th Seal.