Poll on salvation. Eternal security (osas) vs. works and grace are both required.

[FreeGrace2]

Here is the simple plain truth.

You don't believe the truth. Jesus taught that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. You have shown again and again how much you disagree with what He taught.

You have made it very clear that you believe that recipients of eternal life CAN and DO perish. Poppycock.

You've seen the truth and you have rejected it.

Do you believe Jesus Christ gives eternal salvation to those who disobey Him?
JLB

I believe and the Bible SAYS that those who believe in Him possess eternal life.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

The question is: why don't YOU believe what the Bible says?

Belief in Christ equals possession of eternal life. Therefore, all who have believed possess eternal life.

And since words DO mean things, possessors of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Why do you believe that eternal doesn't really mean eternal? Where do you get your "information" from?

And, this is what I said:

"I asked:
"But, why do you continue to disagree with the Lord Jesus who taught that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

The only thing to understand is WHO His sheep are, and WHEN they are given eternal life.

Can you answer these 2 fairly easy questions?

Or not?"

It is clear that you DON'T WANT TO answer these questions.

 

[JLB777]

You don't believe the truth. Jesus taught that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. You have shown again and again how much you disagree with what He taught.

You have made it very clear that you believe that recipients of eternal life CAN and DO perish. Poppycock.

You've seen the truth and you have rejected it.


I believe and the Bible SAYS that those who believe in Him possess eternal life.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

The question is: why don't YOU believe what the Bible says?

Belief in Christ equals possession of eternal life. Therefore, all who have believed possess eternal life.

And since words DO mean things, possessors of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Why do you believe that eternal doesn't really mean eternal? Where do you get your "information" from?

And, this is what I said:

"I asked:
"But, why do you continue to disagree with the Lord Jesus who taught that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

The only thing to understand is WHO His sheep are, and WHEN they are given eternal life.

Can you answer these 2 fairly easy questions?

Or not?"

It is clear that you DON'T WANT TO answer these questions.

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1John 2:4

 

[TibiasDad]

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

The question is: why don't YOU believe what the Bible says?

Belief in Christ equals possession of eternal life. Therefore, all who have believed possess eternal life.

What I can't understand is how every one of the verses you quoted talking about belief is in the present tense, that eternal life is for those who are present tense believing, not having once been believing but maybe don't right now! All who are believing have eternal life and will never perish! None of your verses, including John 3:18 (which also says believing present tense) or 2 Thess 2:12 allow for a non-present tense state of belief to have eternal life. If there were such a verse, you would have quoted it! But all you quote are present tense verses, the lone exception being Eph 1:13, which cannot be construed to imply that continuous belief is not also a truth about the Ephesians at the time of writing, nor that continuous belief is not a necessary condition.

Doug

 

[FreeGrace2]

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1John 2:4

Absolutely!!

And the one who claims that recipients of eternal life CAN perish either don't know what Jesus taught, or worse, just flat out reject what Jesus taught.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What I can't understand is how every one of the verses you quoted talking about belief is in the present tense

What I can't understand is WHY WHY WHY you don't understand that WHENEVER a person believes in Christ for salvation, that action IS IS IS in the present tense.

So EVERYONE who has EVER believed in Christ did so in the present tense.

All you're doing is perverting the whole issue. You are trying to force the present tense to be present up to the point of death.

Yet, Jesus was so clear about recipients of eternal life, given WHEN they did believe in the present tense. They shall never perish.

So, that means from the MOMENT one believes in Christ, Jesus says they shall never perish. Do you believe that?

that eternal life is for those who are present tense believing, not having once been believing but maybe don't right now!

Though you keep making this claim, you can't point to ANY verse that backs up your claim.

All who are believing have eternal life and will never perish!

No verse says this. Here is the truth: those who believe (present tense) HAVE (as in possess eternal life), which means that Jesus GAVE it to them WHEN they believed in the present tense. And from that MOMENT on, Jesus says they shall never perish.

None of your verses, including John 3:18 (which also says believing present tense) or 2 Thess 2:12 allow for a non-present tense state of belief to have eternal life.

This is basically an admission (inadvertently most likely) that you just don't know how to read the Bible.

The words "have not believed" refers to ANY belief at any time. It is those who will be condemned.

If your theory were true, I have already showed you how both verses would have been phrased.

It seems you just don't want to understand or acknowledge what "have never believed" means.

If there were such a verse, you would have quoted it! But all you quote are present tense verses

One more time; saving faith is ALWAYS in the present tense. When a person repents (changes their mind) and puts their faith in Christ for salvation, they ALWAYS do so in the present tense.

No one can actively believe in the aorist, or future tense. All actions of saving faith occurs in the present tense, from the perspective of the believer.

the lone exception being Eph 1:13, which cannot be construed to imply that continuous belief is not also a truth about the Ephesians at the time of writing, nor that continuous belief is not a necessary condition.
Doug

You are free to believe anything you want, but the point of Eph 1:13 and 14 is that FROM THE MOMENT OF BELIEF, the believer IS sealed for the day of redemption, AND guaranteed an inheritance.

 

[JLB777]

Absolutely!!

And the one who claims that recipients of eternal life CAN perish either don't know what Jesus taught, or worse, just flat out reject what Jesus taught.

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


I know Him means eternal life.

I know Him is the definition of eternal life.


And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:11


Christians who say “I know Him“, “I have eternal life”, but don’t obey Him, who don’t keep His commandments are liars.


Those who are in Christ, must remain in Christ or be cast into the fire and burned.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Here is how we are commanded to remain in Christ.



Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
1 John 3:24





JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"And the one who claims that recipients of eternal life CAN perish either don't know what Jesus taught, or worse, just flat out reject what Jesus taught."

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Are you aware that no one, except Jesus, ever "kept the commandments"?

And why doesn't it bother you that you are either ignorant of what Jesus taught or flat out rejecting what Jesus taught about recipients of eternal life?

 

[JLB777]

I said:
"And the one who claims that recipients of eternal life CAN perish either don't know what Jesus taught, or worse, just flat out reject what Jesus taught."

Are you aware that no one, except Jesus, ever "kept the commandments"?

And why doesn't it bother you that you are either ignorant of what Jesus taught or flat out rejecting what Jesus taught about recipients of eternal life?

I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;

Jesus warns us we must remain in Him. Those who are in Him, must remain in Him, or be cast into the fire and burned.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

His Commandments are about love.

Loving God and loving people.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3

His Commandments are not burdensome.

Why wouldn’t anyone who was in Christ, not want to love Him and love His people?


Why are you fighting against His word?


If we believe Jesus Christ is Lord, why wouldn’t we want to obey Him as our Lord?



JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

His Commandments are not burdensome.

Correct. But your theological fantasy sure puts the whole burden on YOURSELF to stay saved.

Why wouldn’t anyone who was in Christ, not want to love Him and love His people?

You'll have to ask those who only "believed for a while", and then in time of testing or temptation, fell away from the faith.

Why are you fighting against His word?

This may be one of your most bizarre statements ever!

Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish, and you, a professing Christian, claim that recipients of eternal life CAN and HAVE perished.

A total opposition to what Jesus taught.

You're the one who is "fighting against His word", so you'll have to ask yourself why you keep doing that.

If we believe Jesus Christ is Lord, why wouldn’t we want to obey Him as our Lord?

Jesus gave us the answer in Luke 8:13. When testing or temptation comes along, some fall away from the faith. Ask them.

 

[JLB777]

Correct. But your theological fantasy sure puts the whole burden on YOURSELF to stay saved.


You'll have to ask those who only "believed for a while", and then in time of testing or temptation, fell away from the faith.


This may be one of your most bizarre statements ever!

Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish, and you, a professing Christian, claim that recipients of eternal life CAN and HAVE perished.

A total opposition to what Jesus taught.

You're the one who is "fighting against His word", so you'll have to ask yourself why you keep doing that.


Jesus gave us the answer in Luke 8:13. When testing or temptation comes along, some fall away from the faith. Ask them.

It’s sad for a Christian to call the words of Jesus Christ, a “theological fantasy”.


I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;

Jesus warns us we must remain in Him. Those who are in Him, must remain in Him, or be cast into the fire and burned.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

His Commandments are about love.

Loving God and loving people.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3

His Commandments are not burdensome.

Why wouldn’t anyone who was in Christ, not want to love Him and love His people?


Why are you fighting against His word?


If we believe Jesus Christ is Lord, why wouldn’t we want to obey Him as our Lord?



JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Correct. But your theological fantasy sure puts the whole burden on YOURSELF to stay saved."

It’s sad for a Christian to call the words of Jesus Christ, a “theological fantasy”.

It's sad that you seem to fail to grasp the simple message I post. The theological fantasy is on YOU. Not the words of Jesus Christ.

And how HYPOCRITICAL of you to make that claim about me when it is YOU YOURSELF who reject the very words of Jesus Christ.

He said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Your theological fantasy is that recipients of eternal life CAN and DO perish.

Total hypocrisy.

 

[JLB777]

I said:
"Correct. But your theological fantasy sure puts the whole burden on YOURSELF to stay saved."

It's sad that you seem to fail to grasp the simple message I post. The theological fantasy is on YOU. Not the words of Jesus Christ.

And how HYPOCRITICAL of you to make that claim about me when it is YOU YOURSELF who reject the very words of Jesus Christ.

He said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Your theological fantasy is that recipients of eternal life CAN and DO perish.

Total hypocrisy.

If someone is removed from Christ, do they still have eternal life?



I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;

Jesus warns us we must remain in Him. Those who are in Him, must remain in Him, or be cast into the fire and burned.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

His Commandments are about love.

Loving God and loving people.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3

His Commandments are not burdensome.

Why wouldn’t anyone who was in Christ, not want to love Him and love His people?


Why are you fighting against His word?


If we believe Jesus Christ is Lord, why wouldn’t we want to obey Him as our Lord?



JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

If someone is removed from Christ, do they still have eternal life?

The very question is ridiculous, since ALL believers are SEALED with the indwelling Holy Spirit "when they believed". Note the tense here. From the moment of saving faith in Christ, they ARE now sealed. And GUARANTEED an inheritance as God's possession.

If you can prove that God breaks His seal upon any believer, please feel free to share such a verse.

Why are you fighting against His word?

lol. I'm not. I believe what His word says about recipients of eternal life. They shall never perish.

Why do you fight against His word?

 

[ewq1938]