Poll on salvation. Eternal security (osas) vs. works and grace are both required.

[Charis55]

I’m curious what this community believes regarding salvation. Interested to see peoples interpretation of why they believe what they believe from the scriptures.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I’m curious what this community believes regarding salvation. Interested to see peoples interpretation of why they believe what they believe from the scriptures.

I have a different view.

The two choices are a false dichotomy. Salvation is based on the person of Jesus Christ, the works are based on the Holy Spirit indwelling so are automatic.

The dichotomy is false because it doesn't centre on Christ.

The passages that are referenced to people losing their salvation are addressed to the "children of the kingdom" that will be cast out into the outer darkness where there will be the weeping and gnashing of teeth. These children of the kingdom were born into church, but not born again. However, since the way salvation is taught, they assume they're saved but like a fish in water cannot see what fruit comes out of them when they are deprived of all the props of the community.

So my "other" view is that those who are born again by the Holy Spirit are transformed inwardly so they can be compatible with a world in which God's very presence is everywhere. Everyone who is not born again will exist in the same world, but like being sent to a future earth where there is less oxygen, or diseases our immune system has not adapted to - they will be in a state of constant torment since they cannot exist in the presence of God without their sins without filter being constantly revealed without rest.

This is an "other" view since it focuses on spiritual transformation instead of "being saved" like trading cards or possessing a hall pass - that can be taken away or foolishly traded away.

Salvation is not something you "have" it's something you become as God's love matures or is made perfect within us, so we have boldness or confidence on the day of Judgment.

 

[Anthony2019]

I’m curious what this community believes regarding salvation. Interested to see peoples interpretation of why they believe what they believe from the scriptures.

Hello Charis55
You have posed an interesting question and you'll get different responses from people here depending on their theological point of view.
I hope you will enjoy the discussions and welcome to CF!

 

[Neostarwcc]

Considering how mankind is saved, how once a person has the Holy Spirit indwelling them God seals that person for the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30.) and how God works in our sanctification, justification and ultimately our glorification. Yes, Preservereance of the saints aka OSAS is in fact biblical.

Nowhere in scripture does it say that God's chosen people lose their salvation. In fact, it says the opposite (John 6:37-40, John 10:27-30, Revelation 3:5, 1 Peter 1:1-12, Ephesians 1:1-5 ...etc.)

There isn't a "license to sin" because those who truly belong to God, God keeps, justifies, sanctifies, and ultimately glorifies (Romans 7:8). Nowhere in scripture does it say that God takes away a persons justification. Gods chosen people will a.ways repent over their sins, spread the gospel, and will always have works and fruit. God's chosen people live by the bible and for the Bible. We all know them by their fruit.

No fruit, no Holy Spirit, no salvation.

 

[crossnote]

We don't lose our salvation because it isn't ours to begin with...
Jonah 2:9 KJV
[9] But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. * Salvation is of the Lord.*

 

[Gregorikos]

I have a different view of salvation. We are saved by faith, through which we receive the indwelling Holy Spirit. Just as we were not saved by works, neither are we kept by works.

The Holy Spirit within us guides us into righteous living. When we sin, we remain saved, but the Holy Spirit convicts us and disciplines us. This will eventually produce either repentance or willful abandonment of God and subsequent forfeiture of salvation.

 

[Phil W]

I’m curious what this community believes regarding salvation. Interested to see peoples interpretation of why they believe what they believe from the scriptures.

Which OSAS are you referring to?
The one where folks say they are Christians and even if the commit mass murder believe they will still be saved, or the one where those reborn of God's seed cannot commit sin?

 

[BibleBeliever1611]

If you become saved by becoming born again, then in order to lose salvation, you would have to be un-born. Weird stuff, haha.

 

[Radagast]

I voted #3, because I'm a Calvinist and I don't think #1 correctly describes the Calvinist position.

 

[Gregorikos]

If you become saved by becoming born again, then in order to lose salvation, you would have to be un-born. Weird stuff, haha.

It's called "dying."

 

[Charis55]

Which OSAS are you referring to?
The one where folks say they are Christians and even if the commit mass murder believe they will still be saved, or the one where those reborn of God's seed cannot commit sin?

I am referring to both of your points as OSAS. On your first point yes once you are sealed by Holy Spirit you can not loose your salvation, regardless of what you do even murder. To your second point those born again with Gods seed in them do not commit sin because they have been made righteous not because they literally never sin. People who are born again will still sin but Christ is their righteousness so in fact they can not sin in the eyes of a God so therefore they do not sin because of the seed that remains. This was what I was trying to convey with the OSAS poll option. I’m really just trying to get a general opinion of the community so ones definition could differ from mine and still vote OSAS.

 

[Charis55]

Which OSAS are you referring to?
The one where folks say they are Christians and even if the commit mass murder believe they will still be saved, or the one where those reborn of God's seed cannot commit sin?

As far as the second poll option. One is saved by accepting the finished work on the cross by repentance and faith the same as OSAS. This group would believe that once saved you are saved but as they walk with God there is a requirement they have in their salvation. If this one were to sin or become side tracked their salvation would be in jeopardy or out right lost at the moment due to the fact that there is sin in their life that they have not repented for. This one would also believe that they must walk in the standards of God to keep fellowship with God hence there are works that must be done for salvation to be complete. Once again people could have different views but this was my intent in the second poll option.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I’m curious what this community believes regarding salvation. Interested to see peoples interpretation of why they believe what they believe from the scriptures.

You will find an array of differing beliefs on the subject. Sadly. The Bible couldn't be more clear. John 10:28 says it the best. Jesus said, "I give them (believers) eternal life, and they (believers) shall NEVER PERISH."

Once given eternal life, which is received by faith in Christ, the recipient of eternal life shall never perish. Nothing about works of the recipient. Only about the saving work of Christ for believers.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I have a different view.

The two choices are a false dichotomy. Salvation is based on the person of Jesus Christ, the works are based on the Holy Spirit indwelling so are automatic.

The first choice is nothing other than what Jesus said in John 10:28. And what He does for believers is based on what He did for everyone in humanity. He died for all so that He is free to give the free gift of eternal life to those who believe in Him for it.

The dichotomy is false because it doesn't centre on Christ.

There is no dichotomy at all. Eternal security is true ONLY because of what Christ did and said about it. It centers DIRECTLY on the WORK of Christ. Only His work.

So my "other" view is that those who are born again by the Holy Spirit are transformed inwardly so they can be compatible with a world in which God's very presence is everywhere.

It seems you have conflated spiritual growth and maturity with salvation. They are quite different. Like being born a baby, and then growing up into a mature adult.

This is an "other" view since it focuses on spiritual transformation instead of "being saved" like trading cards or possessing a hall pass - that can be taken away or foolishly traded away.

Well, Jesus made it crystal clear that those given the free gift of eternal life shall NEVER PERISH, in John 10:28, so your idea about trading cards is irrelevant.

Salvation is not something you "have" it's something you become as God's love matures or is made perfect within us, so we have boldness or confidence on the day of Judgment.

Biblically speaking, salvation means possessing eternal life; God's life. And it is possessed.

John 3:16, 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11, 13 all say that believers possess (have) eternal life.

Salvation is a gift. It is a possession.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Which OSAS are you referring to?
The one where folks say they are Christians and even if the commit mass murder believe they will still be saved, or the one where those reborn of God's seed cannot commit sin?

OK, here comes the "works" crowd. They bring up the most heinous crime that offends them, and assumes that even God would be so offended as to remove what He sealed and promised His children.

God is a God of grace. Workers don't really understand that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I voted #3, because I'm a Calvinist and I don't think #1 correctly describes the Calvinist position.

It's always better to describe the biblical position. Which is eternal security.

 

[FreeGrace2]

BibleBeliever1611 said: ↑
If you become saved by becoming born again, then in order to lose salvation, you would have to be un-born. Weird stuff, haha.

It's called "dying."

Please share any verse that teaches that those who have been born again (spriritually) can die spiritually. But you won't find any such verse.

Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall NEVER PERISH. Do you believe what Jesus said in John 10:28? It appears not.

 

[Radagast]

It's always better to describe the biblical position. Which is eternal security.

I believe in eternal security, but don't think the wording in #1 correctly describes the biblical position.

 

[Gregorikos]

BibleBeliever1611 said: ↑
If you become saved by becoming born again, then in order to lose salvation, you would have to be un-born. Weird stuff, haha.

Please share any verse that teaches that those who have been born again (spriritually) can die spiritually. But you won't find any such verse.

Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall NEVER PERISH. Do you believe what Jesus said in John 10:28? It appears not.

There are a MULTITUDE of verses that state a Christian can apostatize, such as John 15:6, Romans 11:22, Colossians 1:22-23, 1 Timothy 1:19-20, 2 Timothy 2:12, Hebrews 3:14-15, 2 Peter 2:1, 20-21.
But the clearest of all is Hebrews 6:4-6.

Of this passage the New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge says: The following five-fold description of the true believer is scarcely if ever equaled elsewhere in the pages of Scripture as to detail or extent, and most certainly can apply only to persons who were once genuinely saved. If such a description were to occur in any other context but this, there would be no question as to its application to true believers. This text furnishes a near-perfect measure of one’s theological system: if you must work strenuously to avoid the clear implication of the text in an effort to prove these were not true believers, your system stands convicted as incorrect at this point, and the effort to explain this passage away is the hallmark of those who are guilty of mishandling the word of God in order to maintain their preconceived doctrinal system (NTSK) Hebrews 6:4

And yes, I also believe John 10:28. No one can snatch me out of the Lord's hand. But I can leave him if I choose to.

 

[bling]

I believe you make a free will choice to accept or reject God's charity, which means salvation is all God's mercy, grace, Love, forgiveness and all you are doing is really nothing in accepting that Love as pure charity.

Salvation is thus a gift you now possess and since it is yours like a birthright it cannot be stolen, lost, or even taken back by God, but it can be given away like Esau did with his birthright. You still have free will to quench the Spirit and go on doing your own thing.

I use other scripture to address these arguments.

1. Gal. 6: 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Paul explains plainly that eternal life is the harvest in the future we do not want to “give up”, but that also teaches we can give it up.

Our doing good stuff while here on earth (or better: our allowing God to work through us doing good stuff) is not to “earn”, “payback” or to allow us to “hold on to our salvation”. We want to continue to utilize Godly type Love and not get caught up in carnal type love so the huge Love Feast of Heaven (unselfish type Love only) still has value to us and not something we would sell on the cheap.

As far as being saved by faith only without “works”, that is true, but just like the Prodigal son wimped out of taking the punishment he fully deserved and humbly returned to the Father, we must wimp out, give up surrender to our enemy God and that will allow God to shower us with His charity.

2. Eternal Life in heaven is spoken of as our inheritance and not something we actually have at the moment. All other Gifts of God we have right away, but heaven is truly ours as a birthright (our inheritance).



Also someone being dead was brought up, but we really need to see how Christ talked about dead people:



Part of the meaning to the concept of being given a gift is the fact that the ownership of the gift actually transfers to the receiver of the gift and as such the receiver of the gift can do what he/she wants to do with the gift.



The Hebrew writer in Heb. 12:16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.

Esau owned the “gift” of the firstborn inheritance rights, which could not be taken from him by anyone, nor could someone steal it from his hand, not even his father could take them back, but Esau could sell it or give it away.


The Hebrew writer is telling us not to give away or sell our birth right (as born again Christians) which is our inheritance of eternal life.



We own a paid-up tax-free deed to a home in heaven, so that home was gifted to us, but the Hebrew writer is saying we could sell (or give it away) like Esau did.



Again we are not doing or allowing the Holy Spirit to do good stuff through us to get anything (God has given us everything up front with the exception of dwelling in heaven right now), but we do have an undeserved birthright to heaven which cannot be lost like your keys, stolen from you, earned, paid back and even God will not take it from you, but you can of your own free will which you still have: given it away (satan wants it).



Jesus would use the very best words to convey the meaning and Jesus did not say: “God brought him to his senses”, but Jesus did say “he came to his senses”. How did he do it if he was in a dead state or can you do this if you are in a dead state? We know the young man was in a dead state because:

Luke 15: 24 “For this son of mine was dead and is alive again…” and Luke 15:32 “…because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again;…”

The Father (representing God) does not say “We thought he was dead” or “was like dead”.

There is not a definition given for being “Spiritually dead” so we cannot say exactly what that means, but from this passage Jesus is teaching us a spiritually dead person can repent.

It is a lot more complex than just looking at it and giving one meaning to “spiritually dead”. In one since the young man does not have Godly type Love and Paul teaches us (1 Cor. 13) without this Godly type Love you can do nothing of value (it is worthless) so in that since what the young man did in even repenting was “worthless” of no value. The young man is actually being “motivated” by self seeking reasoning, but it does cause him to swallow his pride. The acceptance of the Father’s Love is really not “doing” something but more allowing something to be done to you.

In other words, the young son did not really “do” anything in his dead state, but did allow the father to do stuff for him. The Young man could have gone on in the pigsty trying on his own to recover (maintaining some pride), but that would be really trying to stay alive by doing something as compared to giving up (being a walking dead person).