Poll: Is God capable of using biological evolution to create a diversity of species?

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Since the most straightforward way all the commandments in scripture make any sense is if we are actually able to make choices, aka "free will", then it must be we are not predetermined. Our choices not already fixed ahead of time. Ergo, unpredictable in an absolute sense.

So random then.

One wonders how that counts as a willed 'choice'.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

This is different from the idea that a monkey can start to walk like a man because the spine of a monkey won't allow it, whereas man started with a curve and walked at the same time.

Well... no. Monkeys and other primates can and often do walk upright on two legs:

 

[Halbhh]

So random then.

One wonders how that counts as a willed 'choice'.

Ah, I didn't mean to say we are essentially random acting (as if just rolling dice). Heh heh. Rather, if on the physical side, there is true randomness in particle behavior (but still obeying typically precise laws of probability of course), then for the purpose of speaking about consciousness that does suggest 1 important implication: that ourselves and our environment wouldn't be fully predetermined -- fated -- not in a fully deterministic clockwork universe where all events in the future are already set and unalterable. That's a long way from figuring out out much more about how our consciousness arises. heh heh If someone figures out more of the mystery of consciousness in a way that isn't only another of dozens of hypotheses that will end up as only another entry in the tall pile on the dusty shelf, that'd be something. Atm, I'm interested lately in thinking/learning more about how QM might be involved.

 

[Halbhh]

Proverbs 16:33

The lot is cast into the lap,
but its every decision is from the Lord.

It's always good, even in Proverbs, to look around or just read the chapter tho. This is especially familiar stuff to me though lately, since we happened to have gone through it recently in a group I'm in.

Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

On the face of it, potentially pretty mysterious wording. And it's good to look at a commentary for instance. Essentially it is saying that while we make our own plans and set out to do them, ourselves, our own actions, that if we are keeping His laws, aiming to keep His ways, to abide with Him, then He will intervene and aid us, in our efforts, so that it's no longer just 1 person working alone, but 1 person + God, which of course makes a decisive difference, and not just occasionally. In other words, if we follow Him, He helps us.

What that can look like is I have plan A, and I set out to do it, and at some point something unexpected happens to improve what is happening.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Ah, I didn't mean to say we are essentially random acting (as if just rolling dice). Heh heh. Rather, if on the physical side, there is true randomness in particle behavior (but still obeying typically precise laws of probability of course), then for the purpose of speaking about consciousness that does suggest 1 important implication: that ourselves and our environment wouldn't be fully predetermined -- fated -- not in a fully deterministic clockwork universe where all events in the future are already set and unalterable.

True, but if you're talking about free will, adding randomness to determinism doesn't seem to help. I suspect the answer will be fully deterministic, like some QM formulations, i.e. no 'true' randomness.

That's a long way from figuring out out much more about how our consciousness arises. heh heh If someone figures out more of the mystery of consciousness in a way that isn't only another of dozens of hypotheses that will end up as only another entry in the tall pile on the dusty shelf, that'd be something. Atm, I'm interested lately in thinking/learning more about how QM might be involved.

I suspect QM is involved in the same way it's involved in all other processes, biological or otherwise. From what I can see, consciousness is a set of interacting brain process - and we'll eventually discover how it works, at least to the extent of being able to say, 'when these particular networks are interacting in those particular ways under those particular conditions, the system will have (or display) the main attributes of consciousness'.

 

[d taylor]

Proverbs 16:33

The lot is cast into the lap,
but its every decision is from the Lord.

What is God creating in Proverbs 16

 

[klutedavid]

True, but if you're talking about free will, adding randomness to determinism doesn't seem to help. I suspect the answer will be fully deterministic, like some QM formulations, i.e. no 'true' randomness.

I suspect QM is involved in the same way it's involved in all other processes, biological or otherwise. From what I can see, consciousness is a set of interacting brain process - and we'll eventually discover how it works, at least to the extent of being able to say, 'when these particular networks are interacting in those particular ways under those particular conditions, the system will have (or display) the main attributes of consciousness'.

Did someone mention QM?

I think by now, we can safely assume, that answers to the bigger questions in life. Are well beyond the scope of mankind's inquiry. The last fifty years of scientific endeavor have shown us and beyond any doubt. That the complexity and scale of the universe, are far beyond our ability to comprehend.

QM will be impossible to unravel.

 

[klutedavid]

Well... no. Monkeys and other primates can and often do walk upright on two legs:

Where did you get those photos of my flat mates from?

 

[d taylor]

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I think by now, we can safely assume, that answers to the bigger questions in life. Are well beyond the scope of mankind's inquiry. The last fifty years of scientific endeavor have shown us and beyond any doubt. That the complexity and scale of the universe, are far beyond our ability to comprehend.

QM will be impossible to unravel.

I'm not so pessimistic - there's plenty more to learn about QM, but I agree that, ultimately, we'll probably reach a Douglas Adams situation where we can only say that the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything, is an unvisualisable mathematical formalism that tells us how the fundamental 'stuff' behaves. We won't be able to say what that 'stuff' is, because it's not made of anything more fundamental, i.e. it's what everything else is 'made of'.

People who feel the need will still be able to invoke the explicitly inexplicable, e.g. a god or gods, as an ultimate 'explanation', by defining it/them to be beyond further existential questioning.

It seems to me that science won't be able to answer the most fundamental questions because those questions don't have coherent answers. But the objective is to find out as much as we can and enjoy the journey.

 

[essentialsaltes]

What is God creating in Proverbs 16

The path of the future.

 

[d taylor]

The path of the future.

The moment God created the future also was created, so what God is doing in Proverbs is directing not creating the path of the future

 

[durangodawood]

There is not any indication from the Bible that working by chance or randomness is a way God creates....

I think the Bible records a creation mythology from a time before people had a clue about the history of life on earth. In this respect its the same as all the other ancient creation mythologies.