Policies of your denomination

[e=mv^2]

I am currently without a church and am having a hard time finding one.

A major problem for me is that there are often denominations that have great doctrine but then have some issue that turns me off. Ordination of women is one issue that just does not sit right with me. This is just one example and is not directed at any specific denomination.

Here is the question:

At what point do you eliminate a church from consideration?
Ordaining women?
Ordaining Homosexuals?
Homosexual women preachers? (double whammy there)
Having Icons on the walls?
Preacher selling his book from the pulpit?
Church having a fast food restaraunt inside it?
Church having "Auto tithe" directly wired from your bank acct?
Having a goat headed idol on the altar?

ok... so the last one I have not actually seen but it is the only one.

At what point am I just being legalistic? Am I just being too picky? Are there things that your denomination does that turns you off but you stay anyway? Should preachers be held to a higher standard?

 

[Sketcher]

Ordaining women - as long as they don't teach in the pulpit, that's fine with me. There are plenty of female staff helping out with youth, children's, and women's ministries. And when a missionary/new preacher gets ordained, I believe his wife is up there recieving some sort of ordination as well.

Ordaining Homosexuals - depends. Are they repentant homosexuals who haven't finished fighting all the urges yet, or are they proud and unashamed homosexuals like V. Gene Robinson?

Homosexual women preachers - that should never happen.

Having Icons on the walls - are they used as merely religious art, or are they being used as icons?

Preacher selling his book from the pulpit - depends how it's done. If it's TBN style, no way. But a former senior pastor of mine did an excellent sermon series on marraige, and was later called to do marraige conferences around the country. He wrote a book with all that good stuff in it. I don't remember if he promoted it directly from the pulpit, but it is sold at the church bookstore. I have no problems with it whatsoever.

Church having a fast food restaraunt inside it - I dunno, it depends on how it is run.

Church having "Auto tithe" directly wired from your bank acct - that to me takes away from the concept of tithing.

 

[TwinCrier]

To me legalism is simply adding to God's command. For example, I feel the bible is clear that modesty is a must. Showing knees is okay but showing thighs and navels cleavage and bra straps is not. None of that is in the bible directly, but this is the standard at which I draw the line. Legalism? Maybe. But if my church starting allowing bikinis in church, I would have to worship elsewhere because it would bother me. Some may argue that it doesn' matter what others where to church, but if it bothers my Spirit, then it is my duty to move on.
Those who say THEY have no problem with a lesbian minister would likly accuse you are being judgmental, a legalist or worse, but God gave us a conscious for a reason. If it feels wrong, it probably is.

Auto-tithe! Wow, that would chase me away.

 

[LCMS Lutheran]

I am currently without a church and am having a hard time finding one.

A major problem for me is that there are often denominations that have great doctrine but then have some issue that turns me off. Ordination of women is one issue that just does not sit right with me. This is just one example and is not directed at any specific denomination.

Here is the question:

At what point do you eliminate a church from consideration?
Ordaining women?
Ordaining Homosexuals?
Homosexual women preachers? (double whammy there)
Having Icons on the walls?
Preacher selling his book from the pulpit?
Church having a fast food restaraunt inside it?
Church having "Auto tithe" directly wired from your bank acct?
Having a goat headed idol on the altar?
QUOTE]

You eliminate a church from consideration when it teaches doctrine that is contradictory to Scripture, or if it simply does not view the Bible as totally Holy and inerrant.
I would consider a Lutheran church for you, a conservative Lutheran church. Something along the lines of the LCMS or the WELS or ELS would be good. No ordination of women or homosexuals, no icons, no solicitation from the pulpit, no McDonald's, and no auto-tithe!!!! Generally speaking, goat heads are frowned upon also. I would like to know what church has a tithe that is required for all members to pay in order to stay in the church. I know the Mormons do this but, then again, they aren't considered Christians by most people.

 

[kidsminister]

With all due respect, good luck finding the "perfect" church. It doesn't exist.

What about a church where people gossip and backbite? What about a church where people go around stirring up trouble and try to undermine the pastoral staff? What about pride? People in the church who are scrambling to the top for a presigious leadership position and don't care at all about people's feelings?

These things happen in ALL churches, on a regular basis...doesn't matter what denomination!

And to me, the above are more offensive than "auto-tithe" or a fast-food restaurant.

I do draw the line at goat's heads on the altar, though . Which makes me wonder (to end this post on a lighter note): To me, goats - esp. baby goats - are so adorable! Why not pick a more sinister animal to represent "the dark side"?

 

[jlujan69]

I am currently without a church and am having a hard time finding one.

A major problem for me is that there are often denominations that have great doctrine but then have some issue that turns me off. Ordination of women is one issue that just does not sit right with me. This is just one example and is not directed at any specific denomination.

Here is the question:

At what point do you eliminate a church from consideration?

Ordaining women?

My church has exclusive male leadership. It's not a matter of ability, it's a matter of authority in the family and local church.

Ordaining Homosexuals?
Homosexual women preachers? (double whammy there)

Under no circumstances. If he's repentened of homosexuality, then he has no business calling himself a homosexual in the first place. If he still considers himself such, then he has no place in ministry.

Having Icons on the walls?

My church has flags of the nations of my geographical region where we have fellowship churches.

Preacher selling his book from the pulpit?

Unacceptable

Church having a fast food restaraunt inside it?

Depends

Church having "Auto tithe" directly wired from your bank acct?

I believe we're to "bring the tithe into the storehouse".

Having a goat headed idol on the altar?

Never heard of it. It seems creepy though. No idol belongs anywhere in the building or on the premises.


ok... so the last one I have not actually seen but it is the only one.

At what point am I just being legalistic?

When the Word addresses a matter either directly or in principle and you decide to add to it, then you're being legalistic.

Am I just being too picky?

With several of the examples you gave, there's a doctrinal issue to consider. Where you stand is important and shouldn't be put to the side. Try not to get hung up on the peripheral considerations such as: style of architecture, stained glass or not, preacher wearing a robe or suit, et al.

Are there things that your denomination does that turns you off but you stay anyway?

Sure, but nothing I consider to be major. If they were major, then I'd leave.

Should preachers be held to a higher standard?

Because of the nature of public ministry, pastors and others in this area of church service do need to be held to a slightly higher standard. However, love and mercy must always be in abundance when addressing behavior and conduct problem areas of the individual worker. Though they're held to a higher standard, they too are fallible and especially need our prayers for a blood hedge around their families and them as they do Kingdom work.

 

[MrJim]

Auto-tithe? Never heard of it

 

[HumbleMan]

You're being legalistic when you do it for your glory and not God's.

I would not attend a church that did not believe in the authority and inerrancy of the bible.

I would not attend a church that has a pastor that is better known in his church than Christ.

I would not attend a church that didn't believe in the Great Commission.

I would not attend a marketplace that just happens to have a chapel in it.

 

[WiredSpirit]

At what point do you eliminate a church from consideration?

When they discriminate against women, homosexuals, or any minority.

Ordaining women?

Of Course (Here is a link explaining the UM position on this, its the best I could do.)

Ordaining Homosexuals?

In my church, you have to be a closeted homosexual. They say nothing about having a homosexual relationship, you just can't admit to it. Yeah, I know, the church isn't perfect.

Homosexual women preachers? (double whammy there)

I'd say there are more of these than homosexual male preachers, but there's no difference in policy and I don't understand why there should be.

Having Icons on the walls?

We have various works of art, stained glass, etc. We don't exactly worship them though.

Preacher selling his book from the pulpit?

No, but you may have to buy a book for a elective class at my church, and it may just so happen to be the teachers book.

Church having a fast food restaraunt inside it?

We have a cafeteria where free refreshments are served Sunday morning, meals are served during youth services and at special functions, and occasionally a group from the church holds a dinner that they might charge for. Its sometimes used for fundraisers too.

Church having "Auto tithe" directly wired from your bank acct?

We don't teach tithing, but you can give via credit card if you want and you can have it set up to take a certain amount every month.

Having a goat headed idol on the altar?



Yeah, but I'm not particularly fond of it myself.





This is my first venture into this forum, btw, and I was curious as to what an example of a fundamentalist church or denomination would be. By the definition in that sticky thread, I am not a fundamentalist.

 

[ethereal hope]

Neat thread. You know, once you eliminate the women's ordination, you're left with only a few denominations and the Catholic church, so that one is a telling baseline. (It surprised me, anyway).

And I thought a decently small church was important because of Hebrew 13:17.

My next "no no" was simple: no rebaptisms required to join. You'd be surprised how many parishes insist on baptising again to "join" their parish. I'm personally really big on the ONE baptism being sufficient, and having nothing to do with joining a denomination.

Here's one that I ended up being GLAD I had on the "would be nice if" list: a creed. Trust me--protect yourself and your future parish, and ensure that the parish's beliefs are spelled out CLEARLY somewhere (and better yet, are repeated as part of the service, like the Apostle's Creed or something.)

Because I ran into some members who professed a [completely!] different Gospel -- that the apostles weren't real people, for starters -- and a potentially ugly situation turned out to be easily averted by pointing to the creeds!

Otherwise, you'll spend more time debating than worshipping, and that's SOOoooo not the point of Church.

(Remember, there are "birds" that nest in every parish, and you may even BE one some weeks, and there's no way to avoid having some of the world in your parish. But a good parish can keep the birds in line, and not let them disturb the workings of the tree/branch.)

 

[BeforeThereWas]

The OP made mention of the tithe:

It seems to me that most professing believers almost always make their electric bill the higher priority above what they give to their religious organization.

I have no problem with this scenario so far, BUT

giving to meet the necessity needs of fellow believers, in most cases, is a lower priority than what they give to their religious organization.

Doesn't that strike everyone as being like putting the cart before the horse?

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Most organizations have a purpose and an objective, and to achieve these objectives, there needs to be procedures and resources. The resources would include money, men and machinery. In the case of religions, the men and machinery combine in the form of missionaries. When we have too many men for the same purpose, a hierarchy sets in, and when we have a hierarchy, there would naturally be division of work and responsibilities. So, as Men of God empower themselves with power and money, all the problems associated with an organization also find their way into the system.

Most organizations are effective and depending upon the will and morale of the people involved, it will deliver the results. If we bother to look around, we find that the best organizations are those with the most effective people on top. What needs to be understood here is that effectiveness and efficiency have nothing much to do with being virtuous. In fact, we find this true most of the time, i.e. the virtuous ones are never the most effective ones. It's this simple fact that makes it dangerous for us to shroud religion with any organizational clothing.

Religion, as a process, has more to do with the human mind than body. Though human beings can be highly deceptive at times in suppressing their thoughts, it's essentially the way one thinks that comes out as action. Religions and true religious leaders have always motivated us to indulge only in noble thoughts and virtuous actions. It's therefore highly imperative that such religious processes always led by virtuous leaders rather than efficient and effective ones. The inevitability of any organizational approach is exactly the opposite of this essential criterion. The moment we combine religion with organization, the latter aspect starts dominating, and ‘unwanted’ elements will always come to the top. All the shameful news (pedophilia, etc.) we hear about within organized religions these days are basically reflections of this unholy amalgamation.

BTW

 

[colinlindsay]

You've got a good point.
At what point does an aspect of a church make that church become unacceptable.
I don't think it's possible (although some say theirs is doctrinally perfect) to find a pure church.
Maybe there are issues which are non-negotiable. Paul had more problems with the Galations than the Corinthians, I contend.
As for those people who think their chucrh IS doctrinally perfect, what about the practice? It's undoctrinal not to consider others better than yourself. It's undoctrinal to reduce a church to intellectual ascent to correct creeds. What about pride and the love of dispute - pride, the great sin that no-one is ever aware of.
Maybe the Laodicean chucrh was a fundamentalist church that had completely lost its passion. The Ephesian church seemed doctrinally OK but was rebuked for losing its first love.

 

[holo]

I've worshipped with a high speed junkie while I was tipsy on alcohol myself, so I don't really draw that many lines. I wouldn't be a member of just any church, but I'll worship Jesus with anyone who believes in him. Homosexuality and gender have nothing to do with my relationship with the Lord.

 

[DiscipleOfIAm]

This post sort of died out awhile back, but I just found this today, so here's my 2 cents.

The perfect church does exist. It is in Heaven. On earth, no. Impossible to find it on earth. So, where do you go? What do you do?

The items you listed to exclude are a good start. If you have a female lead pastor, that's unbiblical. Not so if she is teaching children or other women, etc. You know the verses I'm referring to.

If you have a homosexual pastor, once again, unbiblical. But, that person needs our love and needs to be ministered to, so don't outcast them.

Auto-tithing: I've heard of this, but not sure about it.

Fast food in the church: interesting. I've heard of a coffee shop/breakfast area so families cannot have an excuse to be late for church or so folks can have a chance to fellowship a bit before or after the services. This particular one i'm thinking of was based on a donation type thing. Not a bad idea.

The truth is, you need to listen to where God is leading you. I know from a previous post that you are opposed to legalism, but TwinCrier gave a good example of the biblical backings for certain legalisms.

I think if you rule out the above, you'll still have a good size list to choose from. Meet with the pastor of the church you're interested in attending. Go to the source at the beginning. It will save you time and stress in the end. Be honest, let them know you're searching for where God is leading you and you have a list of questions/concerns about the church and its practices, etc. I don't know too many pastors who would not take time to share with someone about their church. Maybe meet at a neutral location, like a coffee shop or something.

Anyway, good luck in your journey. It is a difficult one, I know from experience.

God Bless!

 

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

Ordaining women - as long as they don't teach in the pulpit, that's fine with me. There are plenty of female staff helping out with youth, children's, and women's ministries. And when a missionary/new preacher gets ordained, I believe his wife is up there recieving some sort of ordination as well.

Ordaining Homosexuals - depends. Are they repentant homosexuals who haven't finished fighting all the urges yet, or are they proud and unashamed homosexuals like V. Gene Robinson?

Homosexual women preachers - that should never happen.

Having Icons on the walls - are they used as merely religious art, or are they being used as icons?

Preacher selling his book from the pulpit - depends how it's done. If it's TBN style, no way. But a former senior pastor of mine did an excellent sermon series on marraige, and was later called to do marraige conferences around the country. He wrote a book with all that good stuff in it. I don't remember if he promoted it directly from the pulpit, but it is sold at the church bookstore. I have no problems with it whatsoever.

Church having a fast food restaraunt inside it - I dunno, it depends on how it is run.

Church having "Auto tithe" directly wired from your bank acct - that to me takes away from the concept of tithing.

What he said.

 

[e=mv^2]

Preacher selling his book from the pulpit - depends how it's done. If it's TBN style, no way. But a former senior pastor of mine did an excellent sermon series on marraige, and was later called to do marraige conferences around the country. He wrote a book with all that good stuff in it. I don't remember if he promoted it directly from the pulpit, but it is sold at the church bookstore. I have no problems with it whatsoever.

Church having a fast food restaraunt inside it - I dunno, it depends on how it is run.

Make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

In my mind selling anything at all inside the church is flat out wrong. That is a BIG issue with me.

 

[No Swansong]

Make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

In my mind selling anything at all inside the church is flat out wrong. That is a BIG issue with me.

e my friend it sounds like you live down the block from me. I have seen all of these things except for the goat's head, but my brother in law at one time was into alot of the really dark Pagan stuff, I'll ask him.

Alot of you have wondered about the auto-tithe. I don't see auto-tithe as necessarily a bad thing as long as it is not mandatory. I actually pay a lot of my bills this way, and although the tithe isn't a bill it is convenient to pay it this way. I know a woman who was a member of World Harvest ( The Church Rod Parsley pastors) who told me that anyone could attend but to be a member you had to allow this. She also said that a one weeks pay check once a year was also required. Now this is of course all hearsay in that I have never attended World Harvest and witnessed this for myself, but she is a very honest lady who is still a member there. As far as I know she has no axe to grind so I believe she is telling me the truth. Are there any WH members out there that could clear this up?

As for finding a church e. I think all of the issues you presented are important. I believe scripture is clear about the authority of men in the church. While I would never turn an active homosexual away at the door (indeed I would welcome) I do consider homosexuality a sin and would not want an unrepentent sinner (of any kind of sin) in a leadership position. (I guess these two sentences covers ordained lesbians) I've already addressed auto-tithe. I have no opinion about a fast-food restaurant although I have never been a member of any church this large and probably would not want to be. Preacher selling from the pulpit is unconscionable in my opinion and should be summarily dismissed.

As a final note, I don't think that being concerned about doctrine is the same as legalism. While some would argue that these are fringe issues, I would not. Most of these issues deal with authority, and who should have it. Scripture is clear about this issue and thus I do believe this to be an important issue in any church and I worry for those church bodies who do not recognize this. Some may call you Pharasaical, others may accuse you of hate, I admire that you are concerned with orthodoxy.

 

[Albion]

Make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

In my mind selling anything at all inside the church is flat out wrong. That is a BIG issue with me.

I'm not hostile to your feelings in this matter, but I can't see anything wrong with selling items that relate to worship in that very church. Usually, they are of small cost, anyway, and surely do not constitute a "house of merchandise." My understanding of the money-changers in the temple was that they were a large gathering of merchants selling all manner of stuff (some of it relevant, yes) and making a living off of worshippers coming by. That's a different thing to my mind.

 

[ContraMundum]

To the OP'er-

Maybe it's time to re-consider what it is you are actually looking for.

Many Christians in this day and age find themselves completely overwhelmed by the religious smorgasbord, and like a food smorgasbord confusion comes from not knowing which items to pick or after picking them, not finding a place to dine.

All the issues you mention are rejected by conservative Christians, be they Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran or Baptist. However, picking one of these may not suit you because of other issues.

You can-
a) Start your own church (not recommended)
or
b) Think about what it is that you want out of a church besides doctrine why you can't find it.
or
c) Re-think your position on doctrines that you currently reject in other conservative Churches and perhaps come at it from a different angle. There's always plenty to learn from those who came before us.

Bless ya!