PLEASE! lets settle the issue,the final demon thread!

[ARBITER01]

Are they bible based,or experience only based ministries?
Experience is fine..
But what if people only teach out of that?

Sorry pinetree, it's a little late to be serious with me about the subject now.

 

[pinetree]

Now that was a ministry..

 

[Elijah2]

Now that was a ministry..

Which one was the exorcist?

Be blessed in Jesus' Name.

 

[Elijah2]

Are they bible based,or experience only based ministries?
Experience is fine..
But what if people only teach out of that?

Heavens above mate, when are you going to relate and get in touch with spiritual reality that all EXPERIENCES in the days of old came from REVELATION through the Holy Spirit, and where then written down as His Inspired Word. And it's no different today that the EXPERIENCES of great GOD-anointed men and women had the same experiences of old that were REVELATIONS from the Holy Spirit!

Be blessed in Jesus' Name.

 

[Tobias]

Pinetree,

It's difficult to take this "debate" seriously, as you apparently have already made your mind up a long time ago! You seem to be sitting back in your easy chair, challenging anyone who dares to show scriptural proof for something we all admit isn't there.

What you are missing out on though is a wealth of information people are willing to share with you to correct your misunderstandings concerning the Deliverance Ministry. But it seems that you would rather throw out the whole ministry based upon your simple theological assumption, without ever entering a discussion as to what deliverance ministers do or who they are attempting to reach. Instead of trying to understand the good deeds done in the name of the Lord by your brothers and sisters in Christ; you would rather dismiss them as being in error without ever giving them a chance. Is this what you are doing?

While salvation comes through faith and happens in an instant, being transformed into the image of Christ takes a lifetime. Matt. 13:33 states
He told them still another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount of flour until it worked all through the dough." We all come to Him with different baggage, which over time He carefully removes from us. Do you disagree? Or do you think that the moment we come to Christ all our sin nature is suddenly removed, and we are transformed into perfection, never to have to worry about it again?

Experience tells me that it is a process of transformation. During that process, we may commit sins that include NOT "Loving the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength." We might have other gods before Him, which for some people these gods are not the usual Mammon, cigarettes, and booze; but might actually BE other gods... or demonic spirits. And, with God being such a Gentleman that He is, and allowing us to choose sin when we want to but not abandoning us the moment we do so; there are then times when we might find ourselves in the service of other spirits/gods besides Him, but at the same time not rejected by Him.

IMO worshiping other gods besides Him is a sin like so many other sins. Some people struggle with it more than others. Most often we see it in the Natural world, where Christians struggle to put down the things that pull them away from the ways of the Lord. But for those of us who are attuned to the spirit realm, this can very easily take to form of actual worship of other beings; or at least the temptation to listen to them and do what they say. And we all know that the Devil is like a stray dog; the more you feed him the more he follows you around. Deliverance ministry is justified in that it teaches you how to be the overcoming Jesus has already made you to be!

Therefore I say that a true believer following God most of the time, could perhaps take his eyes off of the goal and start looking around at other things and find himself ensnared by demons. And while the bulk of the scriptures you've quoted state that we are overcomers and that the enemy cannot touch us, we all know (from experience) that walking the Christian life takes time, and effort; and a constant choice to do so on our part. And while Salvation might be a "Get out of Jail Free" card when it comes to heaven or hell, it does not guarantee that in this life we will not become ensnared by the enemy if we become careless. It also does not guarantee that the moment someone decides to walk the way of Christ, that he or she suddenly is delivered from all the patterns of sin that we so nicely have been taught to live in. Sometimes these patterns of sin lead us right back into the mud hole we came out of; only for God to have to reach down and remind us again that we are called to something much much more!

I do hope that you can listen to reason, in lieu of me quoting twenty scripture verses that have little if nothing to do with "proving my point"! My only point here is sharing the truth of how things seem to work; and hopefully you are versed enough with scripture to see how closely what I have to say follows it.

 

[pinetree]

Heavens above mate, when are you going to relate and get in touch with spiritual reality that all EXPERIENCES in the days of old came from REVELATION through the Holy Spirit, and where then written down as His Inspired Word. And it's no different today that the EXPERIENCES of great GOD-anointed men and women had the same experiences of old that were REVELATIONS from the Holy Spirit!

Be blessed in Jesus' Name.

mate..I have said over and over and over...

I never mess with a persons experience...

But..if a strange,anti-cross teahing comes along....

Then is it not fair to ask where this teaching comes from?

Get your eyes on Jesus mate..

 

[pinetree]

Pinetree,

It's difficult to take this "debate" seriously, as you apparently have already made your mind up a long time ago! You seem to be sitting back in your easy chair, challenging anyone who dares to show scriptural proof for something we all admit isn't there.

What you are missing out on though is a wealth of information people are willing to share with you to correct your misunderstandings concerning the Deliverance Ministry. But it seems that you would rather throw out the whole ministry based upon your simple theological assumption, without ever entering a discussion as to what deliverance ministers do or who they are attempting to reach. Instead of trying to understand the good deeds done in the name of the Lord by your brothers and sisters in Christ; you would rather dismiss them as being in error without ever giving them a chance. Is this what you are doing?

While salvation comes through faith and happens in an instant, being transformed into the image of Christ takes a lifetime. Matt. 13:33 states
He told them still another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount of flour until it worked all through the dough." We all come to Him with different baggage, which over time He carefully removes from us. Do you disagree? Or do you think that the moment we come to Christ all our sin nature is suddenly removed, and we are transformed into perfection, never to have to worry about it again?

Experience tells me that it is a process of transformation. During that process, we may commit sins that include NOT "Loving the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength." We might have other gods before Him, which for some people these gods are not the usual Mammon, cigarettes, and booze; but might actually BE other gods... or demonic spirits. And, with God being such a Gentleman that He is, and allowing us to choose sin when we want to but not abandoning us the moment we do so; there are then times when we might find ourselves in the service of other spirits/gods besides Him, but at the same time not rejected by Him.

IMO worshiping other gods besides Him is a sin like so many other sins. Some people struggle with it more than others. Most often we see it in the Natural world, where Christians struggle to put down the things that pull them away from the ways of the Lord. But for those of us who are attuned to the spirit realm, this can very easily take to form of actual worship of other beings; or at least the temptation to listen to them and do what they say. And we all know that the Devil is like a stray dog; the more you feed him the more he follows you around. Deliverance ministry is justified in that it teaches you how to be the overcoming Jesus has already made you to be!

Therefore I say that a true believer following God most of the time, could perhaps take his eyes off of the goal and start looking around at other things and find himself ensnared by demons. And while the bulk of the scriptures you've quoted state that we are overcomers and that the enemy cannot touch us, we all know (from experience) that walking the Christian life takes time, and effort; and a constant choice to do so on our part. And while Salvation might be a "Get out of Jail Free" card when it comes to heaven or hell, it does not guarantee that in this life we will not become ensnared by the enemy if we become careless. It also does not guarantee that the moment someone decides to walk the way of Christ, that he or she suddenly is delivered from all the patterns of sin that we so nicely have been taught to live in. Sometimes these patterns of sin lead us right back into the mud hole we came out of; only for God to have to reach down and remind us again that we are called to something much much more!

I do hope that you can listen to reason, in lieu of me quoting twenty scripture verses that have little if nothing to do with "proving my point"! My only point here is sharing the truth of how things seem to work; and hopefully you are versed enough with scripture to see how closely what I have to say follows it.

curious..

On the forum,or in life in general..Do you ever quote scriptue to people,to explain,or teach something?

 

[Optimax]

The scripture proofs were already submitted in this thread and others, you can read back into them and review.

Requesting personal opinion on a subject, and then trying to corner a person with that personal opinion when they refuse to present it, is quite underhanded. I gave you information that would be more relevant to your request, if you want to know from those that actually operated in healing ministries over long periods of time, then purchase that information. Further requests are just a nuisance.

We are discussing personal opinions on the subject as we do with every thread.

A personal opinion that has any credibility is formed by study of the word.

In that process we take what others say about the subject, compare it with scripture to see if we can agree that what they say matches scripture.

We continue to study, compare and verify with scripture, retaining what we can see, understand, etc. and discarding what we cannot see for ourselves.

Some info we put on a "mental shelf" until we gather enough information to either accept it and add it to our understanding, or place it back on the shelf, waiting for more info.

Sooner or later we either get to a place where the piece of information fits or we can determine it does not.

You have taken a strong position for what you believe and that is good.

However part of a credible strong position is understanding for the harder questions.

 

[Tobias]

curious..

On the forum,or in life in general..Do you ever quote scripture to people,to explain,or teach something?

My ministry (if I have any such a thing), seems to be more toward people who you would say are in the New Age and the occult. Quoting scripture is something I've learned to keep to a minimum. Sound biblical teaching doesn't have to be accompanied with loads of references to prove that it's sound biblical teaching; usually it's the not so sound teaching that tortures lots of scripture to make it appear to be biblical.


I haven't found your over-abundance of scripture to be all that helpful. But perhaps you have a different style of learning than I do. Is that what you are looking for instead of reason, logic, and experience? You want someone to post as many scriptures as they can that might have some slight chance of pertaining to the topic at hand? You seemed to be rather quick at outright dismissing the Judas scripture. I got the impression that you just want to prove your point and argue your case, no matter what the results.


And to top it all off; you are arguing a point that was dealt with decades ago in the Deliverance ministry. Instead of saying that Christians can be possessed, the terminology changed to "oppressed". Probably for the very reasons that you have posted. I myself don't see the need to support the position that a Christian can be possessed; if you want to believe that one cannot due to your extensive Bible study then that's fine with me! Like I say, there's no real dividing line between possession and oppression, or being severely backslidden and losing your salvation by choosing demons over God. As long as we can all agree that people do have to wrestle with the demonic, and that being a Spirit filled Christian doesn't immediately secure you a world of bliss where the Devil can no longer seduce you.

The issues I have with what has been posted in this thread have more to do with basic Christian living, than whether or not a Christian can be possessed by a demon. If all you (Pinetree) are looking for is a list of verses to try to prove your theory wrong, then I figure you can do your own Bible study someday when you have a more teachable spirit! But as this is an open forum and you have said a lot of things against Deliverance; I feel compelled to set the record straight and try to pass on some decent information for those who might be dealing with these issues in real life instead of just on paper.

 

[ARBITER01]

We are discussing personal opinions on the subject as we do with every thread.

A personal opinion that has any credibility is formed by study of the word.

In that process we take what others say about the subject, compare it with scripture to see if we can agree that what they say matches scripture.

We continue to study, compare and verify with scripture, retaining what we can see, understand, etc. and discarding what we cannot see for ourselves.

Some info we put on a "mental shelf" until we gather enough information to either accept it and add it to our understanding, or place it back on the shelf, waiting for more info.

Sooner or later we either get to a place where the piece of information fits or we can determine it does not.

You have taken a strong position for what you believe and that is good.

However part of a credible strong position is understanding for the harder questions.

Well can you explain the triune nature of GOD by just using scripture?

Really nobody can perfectly since that is a spiritual thing, but it is taught as a principle nonetheless in both the OT and NT to some degree.

So asking for spiritual things that are gleaned by experience here in this thread is only opening up a further backlash of foolishness from those that are unenlightened in this area.

The best scripture support for actual possession of a Christian is in 2Timothy,..

2Ti 2:24 But a slave of the Lord ought not to quarrel, but to be gentle towards all, apt to teach, forbearing,

2Ti 2:25 in meekness teaching those who have opposed, if perhaps God may give them repentance for a full knowledge of the truth,

2Ti 2:26 and they having regained senses out of the snare of the devil, being captured by him to do the will of that one.

Paul describes the Christian being able to teach other Christians here, and then puts forth the scenario of some Christians actually being captured by satan to do his particular will by opposing other Christians.

The evidence for such an event is clearly seen here by all.

Can I explain the nuances of it? No, but I can't explain all the nuances of the GODHEAD either.

 

[Optimax]

Well can you explain the triune nature of GOD by just using scripture?

Really nobody can perfectly since that is a spiritual thing, but it is taught as a principle nonetheless in both the OT and NT to some degree.

So asking for spiritual things that are gleaned by experience here in this thread is only opening up a further backlash of foolishness from those that are unenlightened in this area.

The best scripture support for actual possession of a Christian is in 2Timothy,..

Paul describes the Christian being able to teach other Christians here, and then puts forth the scenario of some Christians actually being captured by satan to do his particular will by opposing other Christians.

The evidence for such an event is clearly seen here by all.

Can I explain the nuances of it? No, but I can't explain all the nuances of the GODHEAD either.

We are not discussing the Godhead.

That is a God thing.

We are discussing a devil thing and he is not all powerful, all knowing, etc., therefore has limitations.

One of those limitations being that he can harass a Christian from without but not posses.

We as Christians have authority over the devil not the other way around.

 

[ARBITER01]

We are not discussing the Godhead.

That is a God thing.

We are discussing a devil thing and he is not all powerful, all knowing, etc., therefore has limitations.

One of those limitations being that he can harass a Christian from without but not posses.

We as Christians have authority over the devil not the other way around.

Well,.. Paul is talking about Christians needing to "recover" from the snares of the devil, who were doing his will instead of GOD's will.

Seems like your imposed limitation is not agreeing with scripture there.

And my example of trying to explain the GODHEAD in reference to also explaining spiritual things stands. People in this thread want actual scripture on it, well I have provided it, so providing additional personal experience here is really subjective to those who have no experience in it yet, or ever will for that matter.

 

[ARBITER01]

While salvation comes through faith and happens in an instant, being transformed into the image of Christ takes a lifetime. Matt. 13:33 states He told them still another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount of flour until it worked all through the dough." We all come to Him with different baggage, which over time He carefully removes from us. Do you disagree? Or do you think that the moment we come to Christ all our sin nature is suddenly removed, and we are transformed into perfection, never to have to worry about it again?

Experience tells me that it is a process of transformation. During that process, we may commit sins that include NOT "Loving the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength." We might have other gods before Him, which for some people these gods are not the usual Mammon, cigarettes, and booze; but might actually BE other gods... or demonic spirits. And, with God being such a Gentleman that He is, and allowing us to choose sin when we want to but not abandoning us the moment we do so; there are then times when we might find ourselves in the service of other spirits/gods besides Him, but at the same time not rejected by Him.

IMO worshiping other gods besides Him is a sin like so many other sins. Some people struggle with it more than others. Most often we see it in the Natural world, where Christians struggle to put down the things that pull them away from the ways of the Lord. But for those of us who are attuned to the spirit realm, this can very easily take to form of actual worship of other beings; or at least the temptation to listen to them and do what they say. And we all know that the Devil is like a stray dog; the more you feed him the more he follows you around. Deliverance ministry is justified in that it teaches you how to be the overcoming Jesus has already made you to be!

Therefore I say that a true believer following God most of the time, could perhaps take his eyes off of the goal and start looking around at other things and find himself ensnared by demons. And while the bulk of the scriptures you've quoted state that we are overcomers and that the enemy cannot touch us, we all know (from experience) that walking the Christian life takes time, and effort; and a constant choice to do so on our part. And while Salvation might be a "Get out of Jail Free" card when it comes to heaven or hell, it does not guarantee that in this life we will not become ensnared by the enemy if we become careless. It also does not guarantee that the moment someone decides to walk the way of Christ, that he or she suddenly is delivered from all the patterns of sin that we so nicely have been taught to live in. Sometimes these patterns of sin lead us right back into the mud hole we came out of; only for God to have to reach down and remind us again that we are called to something much much more!

I do hope that you can listen to reason, in lieu of me quoting twenty scripture verses that have little if nothing to do with "proving my point"! My only point here is sharing the truth of how things seem to work; and hopefully you are versed enough with scripture to see how closely what I have to say follows it.

Good post!

Something that came to mind while reading this,..

Joh 8:32 and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

According to the Greek in this passage, it is an ongoing process as you have pointed out here.

 

[HumbleServant94]

Where did anyone get the idea that Christians can be possessed? It's not anywhere in the Bible.

 

[Optimax]

Well,.. Paul is talking about Christians needing to "recover" from the snares of the devil, who were doing his will instead of GOD's will.

You have mentioned this scripture many times.

2 Ti 2:26
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
KJV

The word "taken captive" is NT:2221.

NT:2221
2. universally, to take, catch, capture: ezoogreemenoi hup' autou (i. e. tou diabolou) eis to ekeinou theleema, if they are held captive to do his will, 2 Ti 2:26
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright © 2000, 2003 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)


Other translations:

2 Ti 2:26
And that they may come to their senses [and] escape out of the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him, [henceforth] to do His [God's] will.
AMP

2 Ti 2:22
that they may return to soberness out of the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him, [returning to soberness so as to serve] the will of that One [God].
(from The New Testament: An Expanded Translation by Kenneth S. Wuest Copyright © 1961 by Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. All rights reserved.)

2 Ti 2:26
And then they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the Devil, who had caught them and made them obey his will.
TEV

These are describe in the scripture you quote as being captive, and/or caught, returning to soberness.

The context of this scripture is:

2 Ti 2:24-26

24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
KJV


The subject is Christians that enter into strife.

Those that enter into strife oppose themselves.

They are captured by the devil not possessed by the devil.

Notice also that they do not need someone else to deliver them. They must recover themselves by repenting from strife.

I would suggest that until you have sufficient understanding to adequately answer these questions that your arguments in this debate do not have credibility.

Why?

You quote scripture without an understanding of it relationship to the subject.

You admitted that you cannot answer the question.

I just did in the best way possible. I provided an authoritative source of someone who actually circulated with those who operated in healing ministries, if you are really that interested to know. That is as far as I'll answer the question since he provides better answers on it than I can.

So no, I can't answer your questions for you.

The questions again.

OK, since you are so sure that a Christian can be possessed I have some questions.

What are the mechanics or steps that a demon takes to possess a Christian?

What part of a man does the demon inhabit.

Since God is living in us how does the demon evict God in order to move-in?

Since God is stronger that the devil how is the devil able to accomplish that.

Just wondering.

Go study for yourself until you can see how these things can happen and then you can debate with credibility.

 

[ARBITER01]

Go study for yourself until you can see how these things can happen and then you can debate with credibility.

hahahahaha,.. you need to try a different tactic than the one you are using. It's tired.


Anyways,......let's look at those passages again just to revamp,..

2Ti 2:24 But a slave of the Lord ought not to quarrel, but to be gentle towards all, apt to teach, forbearing,

2Ti 2:25 in meekness teaching those who have opposed, if perhaps God may give them repentance for a full knowledge of the truth,

2Ti 2:26 and they having regained senses out of the snare of the devil, being captured by him to do the will of that one.

This particular translation I'm using is from the LITV which is well known as a extremely literal bible translation, and there is not much one can do to expound on just how straight forward the English is here, but let's look at a few Greek words I've underlined,..

G366
ἀνανήφω
ananēphō
an-an-ay'-fo
From G303 and G3525; to become sober again, that is, (figuratively) regain (one’s) senses: - recover self.

G2221
ζωγρέω
zōgreō
dzogue-reh'-o
From the same as G2226 and G64; to take alive (make a prisoner of war), that is, (figuratively) to capture or ensnare: - take captive, catch.

Quite easy to see the English is leaving nothing to hide in the Greek here. We've already established that the audience Paul is referring to is those who are being taught, ie Christians, so here we have a passage from Paul describing the actual possession and capture of Christians by satan to do the bidding of him and his will, as we see positively stated in that last line,..

to do the will of that one

There are those that drink milk and those that eat steak, this is a definite steak subject that not everyone is yet out of their highchair for. Sorry, but it is just that way.

 

[ARBITER01]

Actually, if anyone was to put 2 and 2 together here, the same thing that Paul is describing at the end of this chapter of Timothy is the same thing that happened to Adam and Eve.

Eve entertained the words of satan and was deceived and taken captive, and then turned around and deceived Adam and put him in captivity.

This is nothing new here Paul is describing, nor is there scripture saying that we are now completely free from such an occurrence ever happening in our Christian walk.

 

[Tobias]

And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Interesting the differences in the translations of this verse. Some try to make it a point that it's God's will we revert to, while others leave it at Satan's will we get trapped by. I wonder which one God really meant when He inspired it?

There is a ministry for helping those who are trapped by Satan's will. It's not that anybody needs another person to mediate between God and man, but that experience and guidance from someone more mature is simply the way it works in pretty much all areas of Christianity. Just like we don't need anyone to teach us the Bible cause we can read it for ourselves; it really helps to have the experience of others to enlighten our way.

So yes, we do "recover ourselves" from Satan's snares. The exorcism of demons is only done by God when He sees fit and the individual is ready; and any Christian from anywhere can be used to command them to go in the name of Jesus. It's the recovery that takes time. And it's nice to have spiritual guidance along the way.

Compare it to drugs. Can a Christian be addicted to illegal drugs? He/she shouldn't be... but we all know that addiction can happen to anyone who lets themselves be taken over by them. Is there a biblical precedence for Christian recovery centers? Some would say "NO!" because we are all overcomers in Christ! But experience tells us that it takes a bit of work to get out of the lifestyle that includes drug abuse. So applied Christianity in this instance is to help those who are too weak to help themselves.

They are captured by the devil not possessed by the devil.

Is there a difference? Maybe so. But the keys to getting set free from the habits and lifestyle that result in these is all the same. We have to stop living in a way that invites demons to want to participate in our lives. That is done by following the path that Christ laid out for us. It's not magic or voodoo or anything mysterious, just good old fashioned Christian living!

 

[Optimax]

hahahahaha,.. you need to try a different tactic than the one you are using. It's tired.


Anyways,......let's look at those passages again just to revamp,..

This particular translation I'm using is from the LITV which is well known as a extremely literal bible translation, and there is not much one can do to expound on just how straight forward the English is here, but let's look at a few Greek words I've underlined,..

Quite easy to see the English is leaving nothing to hide in the Greek here. We've already established that the audience Paul is referring to is those who are being taught, ie Christians, so here we have a passage from Paul describing the actual possession and capture of Christians by satan to do the bidding of him and his will, as we see positively stated in that last line,..

There are those that drink milk and those that eat steak, this is a definite steak subject that not everyone is yet out of their highchair for. Sorry, but it is just that way.

It is easy to see that the people being spoken of are Christians.

It is a far stretch to jump from what your own translation says as capture to possess.

I could capture a rabbit and hold it captive, but I sure do possess it.

 

[ARBITER01]

It is easy to see that the people being spoken of are Christians.

It is a far stretch to jump from what your own translation says as capture to possess.

I could capture a rabbit and hold it captive, but I sure do possess it.

Nor does satan now since we have the blood of Christ, but if I'm not doing GOD's will, then I'm either doing my will or satan's will, one of the two. If we are doing satan's will, then we are being help captive at that point.

For a Christian, we are sealed to the day of redemption, so no, satan does not get to claim us forever anymore, but he can still deceive us and trick us into sinful things, and according to that passage of Paul's, have us doing his will, and that would be possession at that point.