Please help!!!

[Christy4Christ]

Wilfred of Ivanahoe is represtenting Calvinist Predestination in here and asking me to disprove it! This is the sort of thing that turns Atheists off! Please, if there is anyone here who can help me with this, come here


http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=2136625#post2136625

 

[Miss Shelby]

Tell her not to hijack your thread... say ..."The OP was to warn fellow Christians about the dangers of apostasy....if you want to discuss this.. .meet in the GT forum and we'll do it there.'



Michelle

 

[nyj]

It takes two people to argue in front of the atheists. Make sure you're not one of them.

 

[Miss Shelby]

Excellent maneuver, Christy! You's learnin, gf!

 

[Christy4Christ]

Here is the PM of his proof, please if anyone has a counter that I can PM can you share it with me? I am not doing this in the thread, I already put a stop to that. If I ever hope to defend my self against people with this doctrine I need to learn. Any input is welcome

believe it goes something like this:

Does not God have the right to take one lump of clay to create one vessel for mercy, and one for wrath. Can he not pour out his wrath upon the latter to show his greatness?

Also, look over the early parts of Romans 9.... specifically the Essau I have hated, and Jacob I have loved. That God choose Jacob before the foundation of the Earth, before either had done either good or evil, that the doctrine of predestination might stand.

I was once very hung over this idea. I spent a lot of time concerning myself with God's choice to create some people specifically for Hell, and others for Heaven. Lately, God has reminded me through his spirit and through other believers to not concern myself so much with this doctrine, but to preach repentance to those who are need it.

I pray that you do not stumble over this. For I stumbled greatly, thinking in my heart, this is not fair. I know look upon this as a means of remembering God's great mercy, that he choose a pathetic, proud sinner like me.

Also, look over Epheisans 1. The early verses deal with the fact that God predestines his chosen before the foundation of the world to conform to his image. It also states that God does this out of his own mere pleasure.

 

[Christy4Christ]

Excellent maneuver, Christy! You's learnin, gf!

thank you!

 

[PeterPaul]

Tell him evangelizing is fruitless if predestination exists. LOL

 

[Miss Shelby]

giggle fit

 

[nyj]

Giggle?

 

[Christy4Christ]

Listen guys this is a BIG problem over there for the atheists! I hear this all the time! No wonder they hate God and think He is bad! If there is anyone here who is good at apologetics and has a little time to take this issue on then I think it would do an awful lot of good! Please, someone with some knowledge share your self a little for the sake of clearing this up for the atheists. If you are that person the start a thread in GA on Calvinist Predestination. I know *I* am not that person!


It is SO good to be learning what is really going on for them over there and why they don't like God. Also please pray for these people!

 

[Miss Shelby]

Giggle?

Fit.

 

[myrna]

The bible states that it is the Will of God that ALL MAN BE SAVED. To this end He gives grace which man is free to accept or reject.

 

[HisEagle]

Tell him evangelizing is fruitless if predestination exists. LOL

That's an interesting point. Kinda like why did Jesus tell the apostles to go out and preach the gospel and make disciples if predestination exists?

 

[Christy4Christ]

I finally have the answer! What we SHOULD be doing is debating other Christians over there that give Christianity a bad name with their bad doctrine! Maybe this is the way we need to witness! Nothing else worked over there because they have such a bad taste for God and Christianity...

 

[Miss Shelby]

I finally have the answer! What we SHOULD be doing is debating other Christians over there that give Christianity a bad name with their bad doctrine! Maybe this is the way we need to witness! Nothing else worked over there because they have such a bad taste for God and Christianity...

Bad Idea. They will derive entertainment from the fact that we argue with each other. No..no I do not agree. Sorry. I know it's hard to bite thy tongue, ( have been guilty)--but we can't argue with them. Counter productive.

Michelle

 

[Christy4Christ]

Oh hmmm then how do we stop the misconceptions?

 

[Miss Shelby]

Oh hmmm then how do we stop the misconceptions?

We pray. We speak in love and we remember that it doesn't all have to happen today.

Unless ofcourse the rapture just occured. I just looked at the users on line and most of them are gone.

Board problems I guess.

Michelle

 

[Michelina]

Tell him evangelizing is fruitless if predestination exists. LOL

That won't fly, Pp. They have a COMPLETELY different way of seeing things.

They take the Hebraicisms of the OT as literally true.

You can't argue from truths knowable to human reason. They respond w/ SScripture that contradicts it.

Their faith is firm. You are probably a reprobate and can't see the truth.

This is 100% pure Sola Scriptura. Completely irrational.

 

[Christy4Christ]

So Michelina what can we do for these poor lost souls? By the way I am in their showering them with God's love right now if anyone is interested in adding to that.

 

[Ransom]

I'm afraid I don't have time to delve into this deeply now, but I would point out that Predestination is a Catholic teaching (to be found, not only in St. Paul, but in St. Augustine, Boethius, and, very strongly, in St. Thomas). The Catholic Encyclopedia has a long article on it (newadvent.org). There are, of course, incorrect understandings of this (Calvinistic double-predestination on one side--Pelagianism, Deism on the other)--but it is a matter of Faith that God does have infallible foreknowledge of all that ever was, is, or will be and also that God does make immutable decrees.

Someone thought it helpful once to think of all of Creation (including, Time, of which it is a part) as being a living tapestry hanging on a wall with God gazing at it able to take it all in a glance. This conceptualizes, in a way, the Divine Present and Foreknowledge.

As for the Immutable Decrees--since God knew whether, say, Person A would finally accept His Grace or not, it seems that God could have put Person A in a place where he would never be evangelized. We should remember that it ought to be our greatest joy to be God's good servant--and if He wants to save Person B by our telling B about our faith, we ought not to stop simply because God is going to save B anyway (a fact that we couldn't possibly know). So, I don't think the fact of Predestination should impair one's zeal for evangelizism.

Best,

Shawn