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Please help!!!
- Thread starter Christy4Christ
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This might be a good place to contribute...for those who wish to. By the way I love all of you! I haven't said that in awhile here! 
http://www.christianforums.com/t109854
http://www.christianforums.com/t109854
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I'm not sure if I can offer very good advice. I don't know that debating is the best idea per se in terms of that forum, I think just offering an alternate vision might be the best approach. I've had the debate many times myself (namely concerning the classic Calvinist/Reformed ideas of double predestination and irresistible grace), and it tends to go around in circles in my experience. It's easy to take a specific passage or passages from scripture and build a belief system around it, but in the end I think this becomes a narrow and leads to a lot of logical inconsistencies. The real critique is the one someone made almost immediately, that a deity who predestines both to salvation and destruction plays both God and Devil. I think such an idea fundamentally compromises both the freedom of man to come to God, and the essential goodness of God himself.
To me what constitutes the fullest expression of love is a love freely given by both partners. God extends his grace to all and it is up to us to accept that gift and act on it. Salvation, if you think of it as union with God, then to me is the pinnacle of this love and represents the fulfillment and consummation of Gods creation just as a marriage joins two in one flesh.
It is a great and holy mystery in my opinion, and I think a subject one should approach with care.
To me what constitutes the fullest expression of love is a love freely given by both partners. God extends his grace to all and it is up to us to accept that gift and act on it. Salvation, if you think of it as union with God, then to me is the pinnacle of this love and represents the fulfillment and consummation of Gods creation just as a marriage joins two in one flesh.
It is a great and holy mystery in my opinion, and I think a subject one should approach with care.
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I won't debate them but did offer a statement on the Catholic stance. Miss Michelle Shelby is right: you can end up doing more harm than good when you debate such nonsense.
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- Dec 2, 2003
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Christy,
i posted in the thread already the pertinent scriptures for this but from now on I am going to give a link to a very helpful site .....http://www.scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html
if you go to the home page it also has other subject and scripture citation and explanation so as to be able to use and to copy and paste from if you use it though you must attach the link or copyright to it. which can be found in the #5 post of the helps on the top of the threads menu here in OBOB....
i posted in the thread already the pertinent scriptures for this but from now on I am going to give a link to a very helpful site .....http://www.scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html
if you go to the home page it also has other subject and scripture citation and explanation so as to be able to use and to copy and paste from if you use it though you must attach the link or copyright to it. which can be found in the #5 post of the helps on the top of the threads menu here in OBOB....
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thank you Debi, your post was great!
Can bible scholars who are interested in helping out with something PM me?
Can bible scholars who are interested in helping out with something PM me?
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Okay, I am not in favor of all the debating between Christians in that forum...it really makes all of us look bad, but here are two caricatures of Calvinism that I got from a
Calvinist...now you would want to fine tune these so that it is not insulting to anyone but here's the analogies.
Predestination scenario number one:
Take a puppy. Order it to fly. When it does not comply, beat it severely FOREVER.
Predestination scenario number two:
Build a robot. Add two major behavioural switches. One is the "I love you" switch. The other is the "I hate you" switch. Turn on the robot, setting it in motion with the "I hate you" switch. When you're ready, turn off the "I hate you" switch and turn on the "I love you switch". Leave that switch on forever and reward the robot eternally.
Now, this sort of apologetics can turn really ugly really fast. But these are two very basic ways of understanding the Calvinist concept of predestination. I hope it helps. If you use either of these, I will be eternally responsible for how you use them...be kind...be loving!
p.s.: I like number one the best...it has a certain emotional resonance...
Calvinist...now you would want to fine tune these so that it is not insulting to anyone but here's the analogies.
Predestination scenario number one:
Take a puppy. Order it to fly. When it does not comply, beat it severely FOREVER.
Predestination scenario number two:
Build a robot. Add two major behavioural switches. One is the "I love you" switch. The other is the "I hate you" switch. Turn on the robot, setting it in motion with the "I hate you" switch. When you're ready, turn off the "I hate you" switch and turn on the "I love you switch". Leave that switch on forever and reward the robot eternally.
Now, this sort of apologetics can turn really ugly really fast. But these are two very basic ways of understanding the Calvinist concept of predestination. I hope it helps. If you use either of these, I will be eternally responsible for how you use them...be kind...be loving!
p.s.: I like number one the best...it has a certain emotional resonance...
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Miss Shelby said:Unless ofcourse the rapture just occured. I just looked at the users on line and most of them are gone.
Must.. not... say... it...out...loud....
Whew. That was close. I almost said that...WHOOPS! Almost slipped.
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What were you going to say, Kenny? I'm a big girl, I can take it.KennySe said:Must.. not... say... it...out...loud....
Whew. That was close. I almost said that...WHOOPS! Almost slipped.
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Do you find it hard to believe that I giggle?nyj said:Giggle?
Usually, it's at inappropriate moments. Michelle
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