Please help, questions about Purgatory and Mary.

[benedictaoo]

if she was without sin she would not be human

why not?

Was Adam and Eve not human? was Christ not human?
When we say sinless, we do not mean divine.

I think I understand the break down here...

you think sinlessness = divinity... nope, just as prayer does not equal worship.

Mary was sinless (like Eve was) by an act of God's grace. Christ is sinless because He is God.

 

[benedictaoo]

we are all sinners even after we have been forgiven we will still sin again because we are human

the only one never to have sinned and never will sin therefore sinless is jesus

No honey-- it is because we are fallen. Humanity was meant to be sinless!

 

[fleethefire]

Her prayers, yes I would.

If Mary prays for us, we will for sure be given the grace of final perseverance.

And yes Jesus is our Lord and savior, yes it is He who takes away the sins of the world.

There is no dichotomy there so please do not look for one.

We can pray to Mary asking her to pray for us, to give us the graces that come from God alone that we so badly stand in need of.

Isn't our belief in Christ enough? Why do we need to have Mary pray for us? I can't find a scriptural reference to suggest that we need any further assistance for redemption other then our belief in Christ.

What scripture supports the need to pray to Mary?

 

[sy1990]

why not?

Was Adam and Eve not human? was Christ not human?
When we say sinless, we do not mean divine.

I think I understand the break down here...

you think sinlessness = divinity... nope, just as prayer does not equal worship.

Mary was sinless (like Eve was) by an act of God's grace. Christ is sinless because He is God.

yeah sorry i thought by sinless you meant she had never sinned in her life

but ye see what you mean forgivness erases sin

 

[benedictaoo]

Isn't our belief in Christ enough? Why do we need to have Mary pray for us? I can't find a scriptural reference to suggest that we need any further assistance for redemption other then our belief in Christ.

What scripture supports the need to pray to Mary?

Why do we need to ask anyone at all to pray for us? This is the will of God- that we pray for us and the whole world.. if we do not pray for the unbelieving- how wil they ever come to Christ? if we do not prayer for ourselves, how we will keep our faith?

and I believe the bible say the prayers of the rightous prevails much.. who is more rightous then then mother of our Lord?

This actully ties in with your verse from Matthew... who is my mother? the one who does the will of God.. she did.

 

[sy1990]

No honey-- it is because we are fallen. Humanity was meant to be sinless!

ye we were but adam an eve fell into sinfullness

btw looked up about origional sin being passed in the male line and it is only speculated by certain reiligous groups so i suppose its wether or not it makes sense to you but i dunno to me it kind off does
but yeh i cant back it up

 

[JoabAnias]

we are all sinners even after we have been forgiven we will still sin again because we are human

the only one never to have sinned and never will sin therefore sinless is jesus

Shooting yourself in the foot aren't you.

This sounds like the false doctrine that already predetermines you to sin again so why bother to try to be sin free in the first place right?

When I walk out of confession I am sin free. I carry my cross, concupiscence and the influence of the world and the devil behind me but my objective and intention is to NOT sin again.

This is the true contrition required of repentance from which salvation comes.

Without this disposition you are dooming yourself to degenerate further into blinding sin.

Yet on the other hand, if you do your best to not sin, when you do fall, grace will about to support you.

Should you fail to cooperate with that grace to remain absolved of all mortal sin, then the Lords forgiveness is open to us once again through repentance. This doctrine that has you confused decieves one into seeing no point in repentance at all.

Mary always cooperated with Gods grace and never denied His will for her which in turn kept her sinless.

This is a dogma of the Church and a defide teaching as well so its irreversible.

Your free will granted by God gives you the option to disagree or deny that but its to your own detriment to do so.

In effect putting your own opinion above the infallible teaching of Christs Church.

Can you surmise how that would ever be Gods will?

I can see where its a good excuse to do basically anything you want though so can see the attraction.

Luther did too, but even he eventually recognized the folly of his misconceptions.

 

[benedictaoo]

yeah sorry i thought by sinless you meant she had never sinned in her life

but ye see what you mean forgivness erases sin

well she did not sin her entire life.. she was given a grace the moment she was conceived where God kept the Original sin of Adam from her.. so IOW, she was created pre fall, that's all.

Stephen sacrificed himself for the Lord. This is why our faith was passed on to us, becuase of the blood of the martyrs, they were willing to die so that Christ truth would live and be passed on to us.

He was the very first to give his life for Jesus.

So any and all of his personal sins, were remitted with not temporal effects. IOW, His love perfected him.

 

[benedictaoo]

ye we were but adam an eve fell into sinfullness

and God choose to preserve her in anticipation of Christ's merits on the cross, so His son would become incarnate in her womb.

Do you think God incarnate could dwell in the womb of a sinner? One who was estranged from God? One who would seek her end apart from God?

btw looked up about origional sin being passed in the male line and it is only speculated by certain reiligous groups so i suppose its wether or not it makes sense to you but i dunno to me it kind off does
but yeh i cant back it up

 

[sy1990]

In effect putting your own opinion above the infallible teaching of Christs Church.

Can you surmise how that would ever be Gods will?

I can see where its a good excuse to do basically anything you want though so can see the attraction.

Luther did too, but even he eventually recognized the folly of his misconceptions.[/QUOTE]

im not using it as an excuse to sin obviously we try our hardest not too sin but even the best of us will eventually do or think something sinful

but we must try our hardest not to sin i know that

even tho god will always forgive us we shouldt use it as an excuse

 

[fleethefire]

I was hoping for an answer related to why we need to pray to Mary. I never questioned our need to pray. I also never suggested we shouldn't pray for the non believer. I did however question the need to pray to Mary, and asked for scriptural evidence.

Isn't God the Father the creator and provider?

John 15:16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you."

Jesus instructs us when we pray and ask God our Father for something to ask for it in His name.

 

[sy1990]

and God choose to preserve her in anticipation of Christ's merits on the cross, so His son would become incarnate in her womb.

Do you think God incarnate could dwell in the womb of a sinner? One who was estranged from God? One who would seek her end apart from God?

yes i do because after jesus was born he spent alot of time with sinners... he came to help the sinners

he hung around with thieves and prostitutes

 

[JoabAnias]

Isn't our belief in Christ enough? Why do we need to have Mary pray for us?

Why did Jesus choose Mary? Who are we to second guess what God chooses.

Is your Earthly mother necessary for you?

I can't find a scriptural reference to suggest that we need any further assistance for redemption other then our belief in Christ.

If you going to keep asking for the scripture and not accept whats given then it does little good to give it does it?

Please read these links this time:


The Communion of Saints

• A Biblical Portrait of Saint
• The Canon of Holiness
• The Role of the Saints
• The Intercession of the Saints
  • How Do Saints Hear Us?
• The Canonization of Saints
  • The Current Canonization Process
  • The Biblical Description of Miracles
• Images and Relics of the Saints
  • The Incorruptibles
• Praying to the Saints / Praying for the Dead

 

[benedictaoo]

I was hoping for an answer related to why we need to pray to Mary. I never questioned our need to pray. I also never suggested we shouldn't pray for the non believer. I did however question the need to pray to Mary, and asked for scriptural evidence.

Isn't God the Father the creator and provider?

John 15:16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you."

Jesus instructs us when we pray and ask God our Father for something to ask for it in His name.

I told you why.. becuase out of all of us who ever lived who will ever live, she is the most rightous.

The bible says the prayers of the rightous will prevail.

A better question is why would you have a sinner pray for you over the mother of Jesus?

have you looked in the bible and seen the effects of her prayers?

and to ask in His name backs this up... it is not just name dropping but to ask in His name is to be in a state of grace. the prayers of evil sinners do not prevail much.

 

[fleethefire]

well she did not sin her entire life.. she was given a grace the moment she was conceived where God kept the Original sin of Adam from her.. so IOW, she was created pre fall, that's all.

Stephen sacrificed himself for the Lord. This is why our faith was passed on to us, becuase of the blood of the martyrs, they were willing to die so that Christ truth would live and be passed on to us.

He was the very first to give his life for Jesus.

So any and all of his personal sins, were remitted with not temporal effects. IOW, His love perfected him.

Where is it mentioned in God's word that Mary did not commit a sin her entire life?

And where is it mentioned that Mary was created pre fall?

 

[JoabAnias]

and God choose to preserve her in anticipation of Christ's merits on the cross, so His son would become incarnate in her womb.

Do you think God incarnate could dwell in the womb of a sinner? One who was estranged from God? One who would seek her end apart from God?

yes i do because after jesus was born he spent alot of time with sinners... he came to help the sinners

he hung around with thieves and prostitutes

God can do anything He wants.

What we are telling you is what the Church from the Apostles has taught that He actually chose to do.

Your choosing to believe the teaching of revolters from the Church in the 17th century as if Christs Church was somehow wrong for the previous 1600 years.

 

[benedictaoo]

yes i do because after jesus was born he spent alot of time with sinners... he came to help the sinners

he hung around with thieves and prostitutes

Yes he did, he is awesome indeed.

But to be the mother of the word incarnate is not just hanging out with a poor sinner.

Read Revelations 12... See how the devil tried to kill her child but the earth helped her...

How would have Mary said yes to God if she was a sinner who was filled with self love?

Mary is also the new Eve as Christ is the new Adam.

Where Eve who was sinless did not understand fully what God's will was, so the enemy tricked her... Mary knew fully what Gd's will was.

Had Mary been full of sin and not given extraordinary grace from God, I do not know what she would have done.

In her fiat in Luke, she shes, "The Lord has done great things to me..."

 

[JoabAnias]

I told you why.. becuase out of all of us who ever lived who will ever live, she is the most rightous.

The bible says the prayers of the rightous will prevail.

A better question is why would you have a sinner pray for you over the mother of Jesus?

have you looked in the bible and seen the effects of her prayers?

and to ask in His name backs this up... it is not just name dropping but to ask in His name is to be in a state of grace. the prayers of evil sinners do not prevail much.

He has been told several times by several of us.

This is just debate in OBOB in violation of safe haven and our FSG's at this point.

There is no real aim here to achieve understanding. Its a ruse imo.

 

[fleethefire]

I told you why.. becuase out of all of us who ever lived who will ever live, she is the most rightous.

The bible says the prayers of the rightous will prevail.

A better question is why would you have a sinner pray for you over the mother of Jesus?

have you looked in the bible and seen the effects of her prayers?

and to ask in His name backs this up... it is not just name dropping but to ask in His name is to be in a state of grace. the prayers of evil sinners do not prevail much.

I don't see where in God's word it says that I can pray to Mary. Paul does tell us that we should pray continuously for the saints. He is telling us we need to pray for all those who believe in Christ.

I also don't see where it says Mary is more righteous then anyone else. Jesus has been given all authority in heaven and on Earth, that is why we ask in His name.

What are the examples of Mary's prayers, and their effects?

 

[sy1990]

God can do anything He wants.

What we are telling you is what the Church from the Apostles has taught that He actually chose to do.

Your choosing to believe the teaching of revolters from the Church in the 17th century as if Christs Church was somehow wrong for the previous 1600 years.

this isnt about which denomination is right or wrong

im giving my personal beliefs

as i said i went to a catholic school all my life

i attended evangelical, protestant, non denominational churches so my beliefs are not one denominations beliefs

luther broke away because the catholic churches were charging people to get them time of purgatory anyway

i speak as myself not as a certain denomination