Please help, questions about Purgatory and Mary.

[fleethefire]

Do you understand our FSG's? Do you understand that to post here to debate or answer questions you must be a Catholic in FULL Communion with the Holy See and assent to ALL the Catholic Church teaches?

I would say that your background does NOT qualify you to answer questions about the Catholic Church or discuss it here, for if you were properly catechized and understood the the Catholic faith, you would still be Catholic.

Please stop flaunting our FSG's like this, and respect our forum is a safe haven for Catholics and quit attacking our Church. You are NOT qualified to do so in any manner.

Your ideas of biblical truth are your own, and simply your own opinion, and since those ideas do not line up with the teaching of the Catholic Church in which is preserved ALL truth and the FULLNESS of truth, any of your ideas which depart from, or contradict the Catholic Church ARE NOT biblical truths. . . just a mistaken pov.

Is it really our church? Jesus said He would build His church, so doesn't this mean the church is His?

 

[D'Ann]

Would that imply that Stephen was snless as well?

No. Stephen wasn't called to born our Lord. He wasn't told that he would be blessed among women or that people would call him blessed. He wasn't told that he was full of grace...

Stephen was not sinless. I hope that helps. It's nice to see you Pete.

 

[D'Ann]

Thanks Joab

In reading this, I find it interesting that it states that Mary was given this grace and shown such favor by God even before she accepted the angel's word or could do anything to earn it, yet it is such a odd thing when we say God does the same for His elect. This does make Mary's regeneration before she could accept Christ in thetraditional sense more easily understood.

Also, I can understand Mary being shown this grace before conception but I still see no need that she be sinless. The material cites Samson's mother not consuming unclean things as an example, but those things are taken in by the body and would have been transferred through the blood to the child, sin is ones life is not active in the body in the same manner.

We believe in the Trinity. We believe that Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are one.

Since we believe this, we also know that God cannot touch anything unholy. Anything unholy cannot be in His presense.

How could God aka Jesus be born of the virgin Mary unless she was sinless? Mary had to be pure of sin in order to contain Jesus aka God in her womb.

We believe that because God is not subjected to our terminalogy of time... that somehow, the santification and salvation gift of grace that was provided to us by Jesus was also provided to Mary even before His birth.

I know.. I just opened up a can of worms... but I think others will be able to explain this much better than me.

 

[PETE_]

No. Stephen wasn't called to born our Lord. He wasn't told that he would be blessed among women or that people would call him blessed. He wasn't told that he was full of grace...

Stephen was not sinless. I hope that helps. It's nice to see you Pete.

Actually Stephen was said to be full of grace, that is why I asked, but it was a different Greek term translated the same way.

 

[PETE_]

Since we believe this, we also know that God cannot touch anything unholy. Anything unholy cannot be in His presense.

Could Joseph then not hold Jesus as a Baby? And Jesus was in the presence of all sorts of unholiness. I get the idea, I just do not see it as consistant with other thing, even Moses was not sinless but was in God's presense, and the High Priests had to sacrifice for their sins but were not sinless.

We believe that because God is not subjected to our terminalogy of time... that somehow, the santification and salvation gift of grace that was provided to us by Jesus was also provided to Mary even before His birth.

This totally makes sense and is easily seen as an extension of election. It is even similar to the High Priest example of being purified before being with God

 

[Amazing.Grace]

Of course we do! Jesus said I am the way, the truth, and the life. Nobody comes to the Father except through me. But you need to go talk to my mom first. Oh wait, He didn't say that, did He?

I have to ask a serious question. I was following another thread and it linked to a website. On that website was a daily prayer to Mary.

Here is excerpt from that prayer:

"In thine intercession I put all my trust, all my hope of salvation"

Would you truthfully put all of your hope in your salvation upon Mary's intercession?

 

[Rhamiel]

When man-instituted Catholic Church Doctrine negates Scripture, and in the case of purgatory- it clearly does, I cannot and will not conform to those teachings. You should not either. The bible warns us about this! Don't take my word for it, study it for yourself. In cases where Catholic Doctrine are in harmony with the Holy, inerrant and infallible Word of God, I do submit to those teachings as they are from God and not made up by man. The Holy Spirit has lead me to the truth and my prayer is that you are lead to the truth as well. If you could back up what you believe, you would have defended your faith rather than had my post deleted. Instead, you know the Word of God cannot be refuted. Yet you hide from the light. Why? Purgatory is not the only doctrine Catholics teach that is not biblical. There are many. If you would like me to share my knowledge, I will be more than happy to do so. Don't reject what God wants to share with you. Don't reject His Word, the utmost reliable, and the ultimate source that can depend on for accuracy. I still have a copy of my post. I did not state any opinions. I stated facts and backed every one of them up with Scripture. You simply cannot do the same. Do you know why? Because it just isn't true!

sister, you are more then welcome to post here, but since you are not Catholic you can not teach, what you are doing is teaching things that go agianst the Catholic Church, you have set yourself up as the ultimate spiritual authority, are you the only one who can read the Bible and know what it means?
many people here read the Bible and believe in Purgatory
this is only your second post, but as a non-catholic you can not teach here, sorry, you are more then welcome to ask honest questions or to join in fellowship threads
but no debate or teaching,
i think you mentioned that you were raised Catholic?
well that is good but if you are not Catholic now, you can not debate or teach here

 

[D'Ann]

Actually Stephen was said to be full of grace, that is why I asked, but it was a different Greek term translated the same way.

He might have received grace because he was martyred. Greek term.. I'm not very good on. But I think the term that Mary was Full of Grace...means that Mary was really full of grace differently than Stephen in that she was our Lord's mother and had to be pure and holy and sinless... I hope that makes some sense.

 

[Amazing.Grace]

btw Therese, what is the Great Commission? If you are so certain that what I have said is wrong and that I was improperly "catechized", then isn't it your duty to lead me back to the flock? Yet you choose to censor me. You should know it's not me you are censoring. Rather, it's the Word of God.

Do you understand our FSG's? Do you understand that to post here to debate or answer questions you must be a Catholic in FULL Communion with the Holy See and assent to ALL the Catholic Church teaches?

I would say that your background does NOT qualify you to answer questions about the Catholic Church or discuss it here, for if you were properly catechized and understood the the Catholic faith, you would still be Catholic.

Please stop flaunting our FSG's like this, and respect our forum is a safe haven for Catholics and quit attacking our Church. You are NOT qualified to do so in any manner.

Your ideas of biblical truth are your own, and simply your own opinion, and since those ideas do not line up with the teaching of the Catholic Church in which is preserved ALL truth and the FULLNESS of truth, any of your ideas which depart from, or contradict the Catholic Church ARE NOT biblical truths. . . just a mistaken pov.

 

[Rhamiel]

Of course we do! Jesus said I am the way, the truth, and the life. Nobody comes to the Father except through me. But you need to go talk to my mom first. Oh wait, He didn't say that, did He?

Grace, do you mind if I call you Grace?
no one, not one person, not a Pope or any of us here said that you have to venerate Mary to be saved,
I think it is a good thing, and if done with the proper mindset, it will add to your spiritual health
but it does not have to be done, if some people have an unbalanced devotion to our Lady I would even recomend that they stop any marian devotions that they are practicing

 

[D'Ann]

MOD HAT

Those that are new to the OBOB may not know the rules... and so, I'll post them for you in hopes that you will comply with the rules that you agreed to uphold and as is the honorable Christian thing to do.

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[benedictaoo]

Amazing Grace, we aren't trying to get (reconciliation ) to the Father through Mary and the Saints.. we are just trying to get our prayers answered.

 

[benedictaoo]

btw Therese, what is the Great Commission? If you are so certain that what I have said is wrong and that I was improperly "catechized", then isn't it your duty to lead me back to the flock? Yet you choose to censor me. You should know it's not me you are censoring. Rather, it's the Word of God.

oy vey.. is this another sock?

 

[benedictaoo]

Actually Stephen was said to be full of grace, that is why I asked, but it was a different Greek term translated the same way.

and he was full of grace- have you read about his story?

Sure he was... so what?

That does not mean he was immaculately convinced, it just means he was filled with grace at the end of his life-- the first martyr of Christ is totally a big deal. I'm sure all his sins was indeed washed away and he was in a perfect state of grace.

 

[benedictaoo]

Mary had to be sinless because she was full of grace, so why does the same not apply to Stephen who was also said to be full of grace?

No she had to be sinless becuase God wanted her that way.

and Stephen was perfectly sanctyfied by his martyrdom, Love covers a multitude of sin.

 

[benedictaoo]

I have to ask a serious question. I was following another thread and it linked to a website. On that website was a daily prayer to Mary.

Here is excerpt from that prayer:

"In thine intercession I put all my trust, all my hope of salvation"

Would you truthfully put all of your hope in your salvation upon Mary's intercession?

Her prayers, yes I would.

If Mary prays for us, we will for sure be given the grace of final perseverance.

And yes Jesus is our Lord and savior, yes it is He who takes away the sins of the world.

There is no dichotomy there so please do not look for one.

We can pray to Mary asking her to pray for us, to give us the graces that come from God alone that we so badly stand in need of.

 

[Rhamiel]

i personally do not believe mary is without sin

i went to a catholic school where we were taught that mary was sinless, but every human is born with original sin(the fall of adam and eve) except for jesus because original sin is passed through the male line an jesus father is god

if she was without sin she would not be human

sin is passed through the male line?
that seems kind of odd, why would it be passed through the fathers and not the mothers?
is it biological? sperm cells hold onto more sin then egg cells?
that seems... odd
can you show me where it says that sin is passed through the fathers in the Bible?

 

[sy1990]

sin is passed through the male line?
that seems kind of odd, why would it be passed through the fathers and not the mothers?
is it biological? sperm cells hold onto more sin then egg cells?
that seems... odd
can you show me where it says that sin is passed through the fathers in the Bible?

its not biological it is the male, father, adam taking responsibility

i will have a look an get back to ya

 

[JoabAnias]

if she was without sin she would not be human

Are you in sin when you recieve absolution in the sacrament of penance?

No? Then are you a diety the moment you leave that sacrament? No either?

Well then, whats not adding up here?

 

[sy1990]

Are you in sin when you recieve absolution in the sacrament of penance?

No? Then are you a diety the moment you leave that sacrament? No either?

Well then, whats not adding up here?

we are all sinners even after we have been forgiven we will still sin again because we are human

the only one never to have sinned and never will sin therefore sinless is jesus