Please help, questions about Purgatory and Mary.

[Rhamiel]

I have to ask a serious question. I was following another thread and it linked to a website. On that website was a daily prayer to Mary.

Here is excerpt from that prayer:

"In thine intercession I put all my trust, all my hope of salvation"

Would you truthfully put all of your hope in your salvation upon Mary's intercession?

Yes, at her request He turned water into wine at the wedding in Cana, I trust that Our Lord will listern to her request to turn me into something better then what I am now

 

[thereselittleflower]

How would you explain it then?

The Grace we are speaking of is God's Divine Sanctifying Grace that is infused into us at the New Birth and through the Sacraments of the Church.

This is the very life and power of God Himself.

She is announced by the angel as being FULL of God's Grace.

One cannot be FULL of Divine Sanctifying Grace and have any room for sin.

If there is sin, there is a need for MORE Divine Sanctifying Grace.

With Mary, there was no more need .. She had been FULLY and COMPLETELY Graced with NO ROOM for more.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I assume you can back up this poppycock with Scripture?

You can start with telling me where it says that there is such a thing as a dead Christian, anywhere in the universe.

it's called sarcasm

 

[thereselittleflower]

I have to ask a serious question. I was following another thread and it linked to a website. On that website was a daily prayer to Mary.

Here is excerpt from that prayer:

"In thine intercession I put all my trust, all my hope of salvation"

Would you truthfully put all of your hope in your salvation upon Mary's intercession?

Absolutely!

She is the most poweful intercessor there is!

If her intercessions are not powerful enough, then nobody's is!

 

[PETE_]

The Grace we are speaking of is God's Divine Sanctifying Grace that is infused into us at the New Birth and through the Sacraments of the Church.

This is the very life and power of God Himself.

She is announced by the angel as being FULL of God's Grace.

One cannot be FULL of Divine Sanctifying Grace and have any room for sin.

If there is sin, there is a need for MORE Divine Sanctifying Grace.

With Mary, there was no more need .. She had been FULLY and COMPLETELY Graced with NO ROOM for more.

Would that imply that Stephen was snless as well?

 

[Rhamiel]

What was Jesus' first response to her request?

John 1:4Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come.”

Jesus did not turn water into wine because Mary asked him to. He performed this miracle so that people would believe in Him.

John 1:11 This beginning of signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory; and His disciples believed in Him.

How can you say that you will put all of your hope in Mary's intercession? God's word tells us that it is our faith in Jesus that saves us. It sounds like you are not sure of this.

Maybe John's gospel will help you.

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

even though He said it was not yet His time, He still made more wine, because His mother asked Him too

Would that imply that Stephen was snless as well?

no, it does not imply that

 

[PETE_]

Mary had to be sinless because she was full of grace, so why does the same not apply to Stephen who was also said to be full of grace?

 

[thereselittleflower]

Would that imply that Stephen was snless as well?

Not from conception.

And remember, we are talking about what it says in Greek, not English, for the Greek controls our understanding.

Kecharitomene is used of only one person .. . Mary. It is not used of Stephen. So when it says he was full of grace, it is not saying he was perfectly, completely full of grace. . . .

 

[thereselittleflower]

Mary had to be sinless because she was full of grace, so why does the same not apply to Stephen who was also said to be full of grace?

Stephen was NOT said to be kecharitoene. Did my answer above help?

 

[thereselittleflower]

For the individual who chose to report my post, I just want you to know that I am a Christian and while I do not necessarily claim a denomination per se, I was born into a Catholic family, was baptized Catholic, received my first Holy Communion and Sacrament of Reconciliation in second grade and I was confirmed Catholic in 8th grade. I went to Catholic schools for 13 years of my life, including Mass, etc. My brothers were altar boys. In the church where I grew up, there was even a huge picture on the wall of me with Bishop Anthony Pilla from when he visited our school. Based on my experience as a Catholic, I feel I am absolutely qualified to post in this forum and I hope that my posts will rightfully be reinstated as they are very much on topic and pertinent to this discussion. There was nothing included that was not of biblical truth. However, as it turns out, my journey transpired to me opening my eyes and seeing for myself what is biblical and that which is man made. I hope your journeys lead you there as well. For the sake of eternity, you owe it to yourself.

Do you understand our FSG's? Do you understand that to post here to debate or answer questions you must be a Catholic in FULL Communion with the Holy See and assent to ALL the Catholic Church teaches?

I would say that your background does NOT qualify you to answer questions about the Catholic Church or discuss it here, for if you were properly catechized and understood the the Catholic faith, you would still be Catholic.

Please stop flaunting our FSG's like this, and respect our forum is a safe haven for Catholics and quit attacking our Church. You are NOT qualified to do so in any manner.

Your ideas of biblical truth are your own, and simply your own opinion, and since those ideas do not line up with the teaching of the Catholic Church in which is preserved ALL truth and the FULLNESS of truth, any of your ideas which depart from, or contradict the Catholic Church ARE NOT biblical truths. . . just a mistaken pov.

 

[PETE_]

It does clarify the difference but I still do not see where the idea that grace cannot be with sin comes into play. Grace is the favor of God crrect? He bestows it on sinners all the time.

 

[thereselittleflower]

It does clarify the difference but I still do not see where the idea that grace cannot be with sin comes into play. Grace is the favor of God crrect? He bestows it on sinners all the time.

There is DIVINE SANCTIFYING GRACE which is the very life and power of God infused into the soul at the New Birth.

Then there are ACTUAL GRACES which God gives to empower us to do things.

Stephen was given ACTUAL graces to have heaven opened up to him.

Mary, on the other hand, was full of Divine Sanctifying Grace, PERFECTLY, COMPLETELY filled . nothing left to add to it..

 

[PETE_]

Where is this laid out in scripture?

 

[JoabAnias]

From one of my favorite sites that provides the verses you seek:



The Communion of Saints

• A Biblical Portrait of Saint
• The Canon of Holiness
• The Role of the Saints
• The Intercession of the Saints
  • How Do Saints Hear Us?
• The Canonization of Saints
  • The Current Canonization Process
  • The Biblical Description of Miracles
• Images and Relics of the Saints
  • The Incorruptibles
• Praying to the Saints / Praying for the Dead

Mary the Mother of Jesus: Saint

• Mary: An Introduction
• A Biblical Portrait of Mary
• Mary: Virgin and Ever Virgin
  • Constant faith of the Church
  • Magisterium of the Church
  • Protestant Reformers
  • Objections to Continued Virginity
• The Immaculate Conception of Mary
• The Assumption of Mary
• Private Devotions to Mary: The Rosary
  • Development of the Rosary
  • Prayers of the Rosary
• Apparitions of Mary

Eschatology: The Last Things

• Death
  • Immediately after Death: Particular Judgment
  • Reincarnation
  • Being Taken Up Into Heaven
• Heaven
• Hell: Reprobation
• Purgatory
  • Limbo
• The Parousia: Christ's Second Coming
  • Millennialism: A Thousand Year Reign
• Resurrection of the Dead
  • General Judgment
  • The New Creation

Bump for Pete.

 

[PETE_]

Thanks Joab

In reading this, I find it interesting that it states that Mary was given this grace and shown such favor by God even before she accepted the angel's word or could do anything to earn it, yet it is such a odd thing when we say God does the same for His elect. This does make Mary's regeneration before she could accept Christ in thetraditional sense more easily understood.

Also, I can understand Mary being shown this grace before conception but I still see no need that she be sinless. The material cites Samson's mother not consuming unclean things as an example, but those things are taken in by the body and would have been transferred through the blood to the child, sin is ones life is not active in the body in the same manner.

 

[PETE_]

Thanks Joab

In reading this, I find it interesting that it states that Mary was given this grace and shown such favor by God even before she accepted the angel's word or could do anything to earn it, yet it is such a odd thing when we say God does the same for His elect. This does make Mary's regeneration before she could accept Christ in thetraditional sense more easily understood.

Also, I can understand Mary being shown this grace before conception but I still see no need that she be sinless. The material cites Samson's mother not consuming unclean things as an example, but those things are taken in by the body and would have been transferred through the blood to the child, sin is ones life is not active in the body in the same manner.

 

[Rhamiel]

Thanks Joab

In reading this, I find it interesting that it states that Mary was given this grace and shown such favor by God even before she accepted the angel's word or could do anything to earn it, yet it is such a odd thing when we say God does the same for His elect. This does make Mary's regeneration before she could accept Christ in thetraditional sense more easily understood.

Also, I can understand Mary being shown this grace before conception but I still see no need that she be sinless. The material cites Samson's mother not consuming unclean things as an example, but those things are taken in by the body and would have been transferred through the blood to the child, sin is ones life is not active in the body in the same manner.

well I do not think anyone says the people earn grace, it would not really be grace if we could earn it
i never thought of how God acted with Mary and the Calvinist understanding of Predestination, they do have a lot in common

another reason we think Mary was without sin, is because Jesus is without sin, Jesus got His humanity from His mother, God did not need to do it this way, but He did do it this way
Jesus did not have a sinful humanity, so neither did Mary

 

[PETE_]

There is the idea in scripture that the sin nature is passed down in the seed of man, therefore Jesus would not inherit such a nature because He did not have a natural father. I do not now if that idea is seen in Catholic teaching or not but the idea that Maryhad to be sinless for the reasons you stated makes sense, but I do no see it in scripture in itself.

 

[JoabAnias]

Thanks Joab

In reading this, I find it interesting that it states that Mary was given this grace and shown such favor by God even before she accepted the angel's word or could do anything to earn it, yet it is such a odd thing when we say God does the same for His elect. This does make Mary's regeneration before she could accept Christ in thetraditional sense more easily understood.

Also, I can understand Mary being shown this grace before conception but I still see no need that she be sinless. The material cites Samson's mother not consuming unclean things as an example, but those things are taken in by the body and would have been transferred through the blood to the child, sin is ones life is not active in the body in the same manner.

Think of it in human terms. What would you do for your own mother? About anything right?

Now consider God and what He would do for who He chose for His fleshly mother.

Adam and Eve were sinless when created. Our fallen nature is handed down from their fall.

Now Jesus and Mary are our new Adam and our new Eve.

It is also fitting that they would be sinless to remove that debt of original sin.

Jesus by virtue of being God Himself and Mary as a privilege of her Fiat or saying yes always to Gods will.

You see Jesus was utterly incapable of sin. Mary was not, however as a special grace of God was preserved of the stain of original sin for Christs sake and there after always did Gods will.

Though Jesus had no human father He did have a human Mother and Jesus shared her DNA. A mother who had to be the antithesis to the disobedience that over took Eve.

I know its an odd think. Its unique in salvation history. Our salvation through Jesus was a once and for all occurrence just as there was one sin of Eve that incurred the fall and one Mary or new Eve who did not.

Its important to realize we do not attribute this special grace given to Mary to glorify her humanity but to glorify the Lord and His promises.

Beyond this, Mary was a susceptible to sin as we are yet we know that we too can persevere in grace and remain sinless if we, like Mary, our greatest human example, always choose to do Gods will.

We all are capable of cooperating with grace.

Peace brother.

 

[fleethefire]

Can you explain why "kecharitoene" is used only once in reference to Mary?
I have seen many time in God's word, where there are multiple scriptures to support a particular truth.

I am curious why only Luke records the exchange in this manner.