Please help me understand this thinking

[KCfromNC]

I'd think a bit more about how these conversations come up. You say you drop them when asked, but does that mean are you constantly requiring this relative to ask you not to talk to him about religious topics? It can be easy for someone who is part of a homogeneous group - like a family of mostly Christians - to take for granted that their faith in various subjects is a generally accepted fact. Is there any possibility that your family is doing this and thus the forces a few to need to ask you to drop the subject?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Are you looking at this question from a humanistic world view or from a spiritual warfare world view?

From the humanistic POV, it should make no difference one way or the other. OTOH, if you are taking into consideration the spiritual warfare aspect, then you should realize that the devil thru his minions (demons, fallen angels, etc.) is actively engaged in destroying the faith of Christian believers. He is using this young man in that battle.

Remember, that as an unbeliever, your relative is wide open and spiritually undefended against the wiles of the devil and his minions.

A muslim might say the same about you.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

Are you looking at this question from a humanistic world view or from a spiritual warfare world view?

From the humanistic POV, it should make no difference one way or the other. OTOH, if you are taking into consideration the spiritual warfare aspect, then you should realize that the devil thru his minions (demons, fallen angels, etc.) is actively engaged in destroying the faith of Christian believers. He is using this young man in that battle.

Remember, that as an unbeliever, your relative is wide open and spiritually undefended against the wiles of the devil and his minions.

It was the humanistic angle I'm looking at. The family member in question lives two states away from us, and by the way, the only time it ever comes up in the discussion is when he mentions it. And mentions it. And mentions it. We have other atheist family members just down the road that this is not a conflict with. Each knows where the other stands, and the subject is closed.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

And I am certain it is your Ego that prevents you from submitting to Allah, Shiva or the Invisible Pink Unicorn.

Have you ever considered that the reason why atheists would not "submit" to your God is because they don't believe that there is a God to submit to?

no ego doesn't prevent me from submitting to allah or whoever shiva is but rather research and experience. I didn't just go with my parents apostolic/pentocostol beliefs I started at 13 and researched for quite some time, I competed in debate for years also. After debate I could easily dismiss the Muslim faith and atheism. Then later I ended up coming back to my parents belief. You think you know me but you don't, I took time and consideration to finalize on a belief. Then later I got the Holy Ghost after really seeking god. It's not ego that prevents me I was open to other beliefs and such to a degree and looked around. Also your 2nd paragraph is a waste I'm not sure why you posted it unless you don't understand what an atheist is. An atheist is a non believer so they don't believe in a god however there are many factors that play into it such as ego (partly why some call christians idiots that takes ego). Ego can contribute to a lack of faith, we are the "gods" and I myself form my destiny.

 

[quatona]

So, what difference does it make to an atheist if a Christian continues to believe?

To me? None. As far as I am concerned people can hold whatever metaphysical beliefs they prefer. Then again, things may change when these metaphysical beliefs include beliefs about the actual world - like moral ideologies or such.

IOW: as long as these beliefs are as irrelevant for any actual given intent or purpose as your question suggests they are, they make no difference. If, however, they make a difference - they´ll make a difference.

----

But think of this question: How would I even know?

Point being: The Christian in question obviously talks about his beliefs - which makes me conclude that they regard them important for me to know.
It´s somewhat a mixed message when they´d ask me "Why do you even care?" next.

---

On a more general note: For many people, there´s hardly anything more unsettling than learning that a close person has a totally different reality construction than yourself.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

I find though with athiest...some seem to have huge egos.. i'm not putting them down or anything this is just important to acknowledge. The reason being is christianity is about submission, so I feel many question why would you submit yourself to a God partly becuase of Ego. It's important to remember though they are just acting as they are as a non believer. As someone away from god. They can't help themselves

Non-existent things can't be 'submitted' to. That is true regardless of the size of one's ego. I couldn't 'submit' to Yahweh or Allah or any other non-concept you care to imagine, even if I wanted to.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

What I want to know is, why should the atheists care so much whether or not the Christians go on believing? If there is no life after death, and this world is all we have, then there is no place to spend eternity, and all I'm going to do after I die is decompose. If I spend my life believing something's going to happen besides that, and I turn out to be wrong, what's the big deal to the non-believer?

You pretty much answered your own question here. This life isn't just a 'warm-up' to the next one. It's the only one. Scarcity is precisely what makes it precious.

If you find a diamond in the desert, you have something of value. That's life in the temporary view.

If you find a diamond in a desert made of diamonds, you have something worthless. That's life in the eternal view.

So, what difference does it make to an atheist if a Christian continues to believe?

It doesn't, for the most part. Most peoples' Christian faith is innocuous enough.

It only matters when it begins to encroach on me, and the people and things I care about. This can take the form of something as small as a fallacious argument against atheism on a Christian message board, to figures of political power who enact legislation informed by their faith.

To be fair to your family member, though... sometimes it's just flat out fun to argue. That could very well be his only motivating factor.

You should ask him, though.

 

[com7fy8]

As long as it's known and understood that we ourselves believe, and we're not hiding it, then we've done our job as far as other people are concerned.

We need to let people know, and we need to be a good example. You can read and feed on 1 Peter 3:1-4 about how the good example of Christian wives can used by God to win any disobedient husband. They can do this "without a word", Peter says, here. And I would say that good example can also work in order to reach anyone else, too.

We don't have to keep relentlessly hammering at people, and in fact we shouldn't.

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

If I spend my life believing something's going to happen besides that, and I turn out to be wrong, what's the big deal to the non-believer?

Well, I understand there are scientists who believe that genes can determine behaviors. So, if this were so, then evolution would need to produce genes which produce or help to produce the behaviors associated with believing in God and experiencing God sharing His own love with us > Romans 5:5. So, yes, why would atheists object to evolution producing Christians? It is about survival of the fittest, isn't it? So, if Christians can survive, wouldn't that be ok with evolution??

And if evolution produced the brain being able to have people experiencing God in His own love, why would evolutionists object to what evolution has produced?? And who is the fittest? Who is winning?

In Jesus, we have "rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:29)

But people who use their methods of conquering do not have this deeply soul-soothing rest . . . even though they may be able to more or less take over and control this world.

"Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us." (Romans 8:37)

They might somehow survive and control, but they are missing out on sharing with God in His own love with "rest for your souls."

Be a good example of this. Example is used by God to win all which is so better

there is one who is actively evangelizing for atheism

This young family member (who we love very much and would like to just hang around with) has been asked to leave the subject alone, but he won't. It seems very important to him that those of us who believe, stop doing that.

One thing is that Satan will try to get you arguing. He can try to get you to fear that you are being silent, and therefore you are letting people go to hell and therefore you have to keep speaking up and fighting with him. Or, he can try to make you feel you are superior so you fight to keep anyone else from saying what you don't agree with. But it is good to not let wrong people decide how you see things and what you do and how you react. But trust the LORD. He does have us speak, when He pleases. But also He has us hold our peace and let Him fight the battle.

So, what difference does it make to an atheist if a Christian continues to believe?

Each person is different. If he is young, he may simply have that peer conformity thing going on in him, feeling that we all need to conform to each other. Also, there are political activists who do not want Republicans interfering with abortion and gay marriage and other items. Christians publicly are showing to be Republican and opposing abortion and gay marriage . . . and other items. So, he could be fighting this.

I certainly will suggest asking, but I'd also like to know the possible reasons others might have for caring so much.

I would say get to know each person. Even though public activist atheists can make it seem like all atheists have the same reasons and purposes, they do not necessarily speak for all atheists. Plus, God can be drawing one to Jesus and so the person is seeing things differently; always be ready to help someone like this, and sow seeds which God can later use with ones who now maybe are not being drawn > 1 Corinthians 15:58

 

[essentialsaltes]

What I want to know is, why should the atheists care so much whether or not the Christians go on believing? If there is no life after death, and this world is all we have, then there is no place to spend eternity, and all I'm going to do after I die is decompose. If I spend my life believing something's going to happen besides that, and I turn out to be wrong, what's the big deal to the non-believer?

... This young family member (who we love very much and would like to just hang around with) has been asked to leave the subject alone, but he won't. It seems very important to him that those of us who believe, stop doing that.

So, what difference does it make to an atheist if a Christian continues to believe?

Sounds like your family member is being rude, which may be a separate question. Not knowing the person it's hard to say, but it's often said that new believers are particularly fervent, and this can also be the case with new non-believers. Hopefully they will mellow out.

To the larger question, when one sees someone falling into error, one wants to help them out and get them to see the truth. And this instinct is the same whether one believes religion A or religion B or no religion.

Particularly if the erroneous beliefs are harmful in some way. Giving all your money to the TV preacher, suffering in this life for a fantasy future life, or being a religiously justified jerk.

 

[jayem]

I think that many atheists have an agenda, and its rooted in brain mechanisms. If you supress "natural theism" (mode I) then the brain energy goes elsewhere. My guess: converting others to "the truth".

This is because theism still lingers as a part of the subconscious, its been repressed but not destroyed. So half of the atheists life is a justification of the non religious life, a why should I mode that keeps the brain in mode II.

So this moralistic justification of athism, it tends to be generalised... why should he, she or they...(?)

I'm not saying God does or doesn't exist, just that its been argued that basic "god beliefs" are fairly natural to us, and going against the grain might have a mechanism to it. It takes energy to keep it down.

I agree that god-beliefs are likely rooted in how our brains are wired. In my case, I never did connect with religion in any form. Religion was never a big deal in my family, but I was sent to Bible school for a time as a child. And I remember that even at 9 or 10 years old, deep down inside, I thought those Bible stories were no more than made-up fairy tales. My entire life, I've always been extremely doubtful of any kind of God, or supernatural claims. And it takes no energy--it's natural to me. So that must be because of how my brain processes information. I don't at all believe that I have greater intelligence, intellectual capability, or rationality--only that I have a different way of thinking.

And getting back to the OP: Because I see things differently, I would never try to browbeat anyone to my view of existence. I enjoy discussion and debate, but I wouldn't provoke it in the usual social setting. And like Thomas Jefferson said, as long it doesn't pick my pocket or break my leg, I don't care if you believe in one god, many gods, or no god.

 

[dickyh995]

My question here is aimed primarily at atheists, agnostics, or those who used to be. It's more a matter of family ethics than societal, but I couldn't find any better fit than this forum, because it needs to be somewhere that my target audience has access to. There goes Christian Advice, etc.

In our family we have a mix of Christians and atheists. From a Christian point of view, I can understand the urgency in wishing atheists would come to believe. The Christian thinking is, there is a life beyond this one, there is eternity to deal with, and we need to be ready for what happens after death. We also recognize, however, that we can only make that decision for ourselves, not others. Even our pastor (who used to be an atheist, by the way) says it's not our job to *make* others believe. As long as it's known and understood that we ourselves believe, and we're not hiding it, then we've done our job as far as other people are concerned. We don't have to keep relentlessly hammering at people, and in fact we shouldn't. If we're too repulsive and obnoxious, we can harm the cause instead by driving people away.

What I want to know is, why should the atheists care so much whether or not the Christians go on believing? If there is no life after death, and this world is all we have, then there is no place to spend eternity, and all I'm going to do after I die is decompose. If I spend my life believing something's going to happen besides that, and I turn out to be wrong, what's the big deal to the non-believer?

I ask because, although the topic is off the table between most of the Christians and atheists in our family, there is one who is actively evangelizing for atheism. We, as Christians, will politely drop the subject if we are asked to. Most of us would just like to get along and be a family, regardless of who believes what, because we see it as an individual choice. I mean, we also have Christians of different denominations, Catholic, Baptist, etc., and nobody's arguing about why your church is wrong and mine is right. We are not going to stop practicing our faith, but we aren't going to keep harping to other people about why they should. This young family member (who we love very much and would like to just hang around with) has been asked to leave the subject alone, but he won't. It seems very important to him that those of us who believe, stop doing that.

So, what difference does it make to an atheist if a Christian continues to believe?

I can only answer from my opinion but to me it makes no difference what people believe, as long as they keep it to themselves. Problem for me is that none of the major religions, of which Christianity is one, cannot seem to stop interfering or focing their beliefs in other people's lives. We see I.D. trying be snuck into science classes, we see resistance to equal rights for the LGBT community from the religious. Suicide bombing, FGM, honor killings, teaching children they will burn in the fiery pits of hell, subjugation of women etc. are almost exclusively religiously motivated. That's why it's a big deal to me.

 

[Larniavc]

So, what difference does it make to an atheist if a Christian continues to believe?

I think this is a case of individual difference rather than a stable trait of being an atheist.

And younger people are full of passion for what they believe in they often simply can't contain themselves.

I would wager that this young person would be just as passionate if they where theist.

 

[Larniavc]

I think that many atheists have an agenda, and its rooted in brain mechanisms. If you supress "natural theism" (mode I) then the brain energy goes elsewhere. My guess: converting others to "the truth".

This is because theism still lingers as a part of the subconscious, its been repressed but not destroyed. So half of the atheists life is a justification of the non religious life, a why should I mode that keeps the brain in mode II.

So this moralistic justification of athism, it tends to be generalised... why should he, she or they...(?)

I'm not saying God does or doesn't exist, just that its been argued that basic "god beliefs" are fairly natural to us, and going against the grain might have a mechanism to it. It takes energy to keep it down.

That's rubbish.

Brain energy? What are you talking about?

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Non-existent things can't be 'submitted' to. That is true regardless of the size of one's ego. I couldn't 'submit' to Yahweh or Allah or any other non-concept you care to imagine, even if I wanted to.

That's your opinion that there is no God but obviously this discussion post even exist because not an undusted fact that he doesn't exist. You can't say it's conclusive that a God doesn't exist be it's one of the most controversial topics in the world.

ANd I know you can't submit even if you wanted to it's the nature of a non believer.

 

[Freodin]

no ego doesn't prevent me from submitting to allah or whoever shiva is but rather research and experience.

That was a rhetorcial, if not ironical question. I know that it isn't "ego" that makes you not "submit" to other concept of deities or authorities.
(Though you not knowing who Shiva is doesn't speak for your 'research and experience' )

I didn't just go with my parents apostolic/pentocostol beliefs I started at 13 and researched for quite some time, I competed in debate for years also. After debate I could easily dismiss the Muslim faith and atheism. Then later I ended up coming back to my parents belief. You think you know me but you don't, I took time and consideration to finalize on a belief. Then later I got the Holy Ghost after really seeking god. It's not ego that prevents me I was open to other beliefs and such to a degree and looked around.

It seems that you think you know me, what I did, what I didn't, what I "researched" and what I "experienced".
Perhaps your "openess to other beliefs" might lead you to at least not-open-opposition when others tell you what and why they believe or not-believe.

Also your 2nd paragraph is a waste I'm not sure why you posted it unless you don't understand what an atheist is. An atheist is a non believer so they don't believe in a god...

Wow, really? I didn't know that. It seems that for the last three or so decades, I called myself an atheist, and didn't understand that you have to not-believe in a god to be that.
[/snark, sorry. My "faith" is clearly shown on my profile, and I'd say I do know what an atheist is. And "ego" isn't required for that.]

... however there are many factors that play into it such as ego (partly why some call christians idiots that takes ego).

Calling unbelievers "fools"... that also takes "ego". Claiming to have gotten "the Holy Ghost"... that also takes "ego".
Still, I wouldn't presume to tell you what you need to be a Christian, and what made you believe in Christianity. I will accept what you tell me... even if I keep my doubts in it.
Can you do me the same courtesy?

Ego can contribute to a lack of faith, we are the "gods" and I myself form my destiny.

As I - and others - told you: I cannot "submit" to something I do not believe exists. This is the reason I do not "submit" to your God... not because I want to be my own God, not because I rebel against God, not because I want to "sin".

Can you accept that?

 

[quatona]

That's your opinion that there is no God but obviously this discussion post even exist because not an undusted fact that he doesn't exist.

Be that as it may - the OP asked for the opinions of atheists specifically.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

That was a rhetorcial, if not ironical question. I know that it isn't "ego" that makes you not "submit" to other concept of deities or authorities.
(Though you not knowing who Shiva is doesn't speak for your 'research and experience' )


It seems that you think you know me, what I did, what I didn't, what I "researched" and what I "experienced".
Perhaps your "openess to other beliefs" might lead you to at least not-open-opposition when others tell you what and why they believe or not-believe.

Wow, really? I didn't know that. It seems that for the last three or so decades, I called myself an atheist, and didn't understand that you have to not-believe in a god to be that.
[/snark, sorry. My "faith" is clearly shown on my profile, and I'd say I do know what an atheist is. And "ego" isn't required for that.]

Calling unbelievers "fools"... that also takes "ego". Claiming to have gotten "the Holy Ghost"... that also takes "ego".
Still, I wouldn't presume to tell you what you need to be a Christian, and what made you believe in Christianity. I will accept what you tell me... even if I keep my doubts in it.
Can you do me the same courtesy?


As I - and others - told you: I cannot "submit" to something I do not believe exists. This is the reason I do not "submit" to your God... not because I want to be my own God, not because I rebel against God, not because I want to "sin".

Can you accept that?

Didn't sound much like a rhetorical was poorly structured. ANd tbh why would I research something that's already been dismissed by a pronderance of society. I only researched things that were relevant or even in discussion for being truth.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Be that as it may - the OP asked for the opinions of atheists specifically.

i'm aware of that not sure what is your point. I made one comment and was done but then some atheist responded so I responded back. I think that's fine regardless who the forum is meant for. They chose to talk to me about my post.

 

[Freodin]

Didn't sound much like a rhetorical was poorly structured.

Ok, sorry, it have to adjust again. It was a rhetorical, even ironical statement, not a question.

As for "poorly structured"... please don't accuse me of "poorly structuring" my statements with a sentence like that. It's bad for my irony meter, poor little thing.

ANd tbh why would I research something that's already been dismissed by a pronderance of society. I only researched things that were relevant or even in discussion for being truth.

Yeah, why would you research something that only other people consider valid. It's not that a billion Hindus had anything relevant to offer in this discussion.
[/snark, sorry, again, but such a statement doesn't deserve better]

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Ok, sorry, it have to adjust again. It was a rhetorical, even ironical statement, not a question.

As for "poorly structured"... please don't accuse me of "poorly structuring" my statements with a sentence like that. It's bad for my irony meter, poor little thing.

Yeah, why would you research something that only other people consider valid. It's not that a billion Hindus had anything relevant to offer in this discussion.
[/snark, sorry, again, but such a statement doesn't deserve better]

The sentence is fine I'm not sure what you're rambiling on about. And I live in America so logically what I'm referring to is Hinduism not being very relevant or cared about in America. Sure in India where 900 million+ of them live supposedly it's the stuff, but for me as a teen in America it wasn't really taken seriously. Maybe still isn't I haven't checked on the religion in a bit. I feel what you also don't understand though is I started at a young age, all young people look to fit in, I wasn't looking for some belief system that isn't prelevant in America and doesn't have a place of worship in my area. I was looking for something I can be a part of so that narrowed my search and I'm glad it did cause I found the truth faster.