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Please help me figure this out!

tonychanyt

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Hello everyone!
I am really struggling with the concepts in Calvinism.
Right, I identify with you. This is how I deal with it:

Calvinism, like other isms, contains overgeneralizations. Instead of accepting or rejecting Calvinism wholesale, I look at one given specific issue at a time.

Step 1: Describe the issue as specifically as possible without using any terms that are not found in the Bible.

Can you do that?
 
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ladodgers6

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It means that they were ungodly people refusing to listen to Him. What do you think it means?
Before I reply to your question. Can you expand further?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Before I reply to your question. Can you expand further?
No, I don’t see any reason to expand on a very plain & simple statement as “I say these things so that you may be saved” that couldn’t possibly be interpreted any other way. There’s no metaphors, it’s not a parable, it’s a plain and simple statement.
 
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maves

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Maves, nice to meet you. I have been a Classical Calvinist for decades now. I was an Arminian prior to becoming a convinced Calvinist. So, I hope I can answer your questions and help you work somethings out. First thing I noticed about your comment above, which is a very common consensus, is that a lot of people confused Hyper-Calvinism and Classical Calvinism. In Classical Calvinism it teaches, that God is not the author of sin, this falls under Hyper-Calvinism. I will use acronyms CC (Classical Calvinism) and HC (Hyper-Calvinism) going forward. In CC, God does not coerce Adam to sin against his will, this will make God the author of sin. Adam fell by his own volition. CC also teaches that God allowed to permit the fall, by allowing Adam to fulfill the Covenant of Works made between God & Adam in the Garden Temple with Obedience or Disobedience. One Act comes with Blessings and Eternal Sabbath (Life) rest with God, the other Act comes with sanctions of curses and death. Take note that Scripture states that God created Adam in an upright standing. He was created righteous and good, with a free-will to obey or disobey God. Which is why God made a Covenant with Adam to fulfill with obedience and spread God's glory through the earth.

Now in HC it teaches that God ordained (wanted the fall to happen) Adam to fall, which makes God the author of evil. Because Adam did not have a choice. Basically was coerced to sin or designed that way. But this is not Scriptural at all. Scripture is explicit in teaching God is not the author of sin and evil.

I don't know how familiar or your level of Biblical knowledge is, but one needs to know the beginning to understand the rest. Knowing the impact of the fulfillment of this Covenant with God is crucial to understanding the the rest of Biblical history. Adam was appointed by God as the human race representative. Like a President representing the US. His actions affect us all in con-solidarity. If the President declares war, we are all at war. He is our leader-head, and he actions affect every single American. I'll touch on this more later.

Ponder upon what I have written so far, and write any questions or concerns you might have.


Excellent question, I am glad to see people genuinely seeking answers. Yes Adam and Eve's eyes were open once they disobeyed God, by eating he forbidden fruit, knowing this they ran and hid from God. God search for them, ask why are you hiding. Because we saw we were naked. God said how do you know this, pointing out that they disobeyed him. God cursed them and were sanctioned with exile and death. But immediately after this God made another Covenant; a Covenant of Grace in which a Savior would come to rescue them from their sins through a seed through Eve.

Genesis 3:15 says, “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.” This is known as the protoevangelium—the first gospel. The verse introduces two elements previously unknown in the Garden of Eden, elements that are the basis of Christianity—the curse on mankind because of Adam’s sin and God’s provision for a Savior from sin who would take the curse upon Himself.

And yes, the Gospel is offered to every living creature as commanded by God. This is called the external call. Please again write down any questions or concerns you might have for me. I will address half of your post, and then other half later. If you don't mind. There's a lot to unpack here.


Another great insightful questions. Yes, exactly Jews have the Stone Tablets and Gentile have the natural Law. So that nobody is without excuse.

Okay, I'll stop here, because this is a place where you are going to have to do a lot of reading, studying, and research. Ask yourself, what did the fall cause? Describe if the disposition of the fallen human race. What is sin, and what were the ramifications of it. Describe is a sinner? What does Scripture say about our fallen condition? Are sinners enemies and hostile toward God? Is God and Man sworn enemies? Why is a Mediator needed between God and Man? Are sinners rebellious against God?

I ask these question because having a weak view of the gravity of sin leads to a weak view of God's Amazing Grace.

I'll be waiting for your reply.

By Grace Alone in Christ Alone!​
Hello, nice to meet you as well!
I apologize for my late response. I was out of the country.

I must also be honest, I haven't been reading this thread since the last time I posted. I love so many Classical Calvinists, and, after all, this view does not compromise or obscure the Gospel, so clearly, we are brothers and sisters running the same race; we have been saved by the same Gospel. One of my favorite authors, Gavin Ortlund, is a '5-point' Calvinist, but I have been absolutely loving his work recently and enjoy his videos very much too! In no way is this an issue to divide on!

I do think the hyper-Calvinist attitude is very tricky, though, many can make it their whole message. I believe hyper-Calvinism and its implications are not Scriptural nor are they found in the Apostolic Fathers. Since you are a Classical Calvinist, we can defend the amazing grace, goodness, and love of God to others in this world together, explaining thoughtfully how the culpability of sin rests on us.

I am open to considering your position! I believe Molinism makes a great deal of sense to recognize both God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. I am willing to consider other perspectives, though. However, I do not see this as a primary issue in any sense, so I'm not devoting a lot of time to it right now.

I look forward to engaging with you further in the future about this issue! I am quite busy at the moment, and I really do not have the time to keep up with this thread, but I hope we can all make some progress. From what I've skimmed on the 7th page to understand the context of your message, I appreciate how we're digging into history, too, to see the fruit of Calvinism and the intentions of those who aligned with John Calvin. I think he did incredible things to help reform the Church!

Oh, also, the only Systematic Theology textbook I own is thoroughly Calvinist, haha! I certainly am open to Calvinist perspectives. I simply want to know who God is and worship Him. I do take a different stance than you on this specific soteriological issue, but the posture of my heart is open if I am indeed mistaken.

Since the mechanics of how God's choices and our choices work together are not thoroughly expressed in Scripture as perhaps we would like them to be, I think the best step moving forward is to consider the perspectives of those best acquainted with the teachings of the Apostles in the early church. Our attitude throughout this should be distinct, too; we should have openness and humility before God as He presents Himself to us, and seek Him in prayer.

Indeed, by Grace Alone in Christ Alone!
May the Lord bless you and keep you!
 
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ladodgers6

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Hello, nice to meet you as well!
I apologize for my late response. I was out of the country.

I must also be honest, I haven't been reading this thread since the last time I posted. I love so many Classical Calvinists, and, after all, this view does not compromise or obscure the Gospel, so clearly, we are brothers and sisters running the same race; we have been saved by the same Gospel. One of my favorite authors, Gavin Ortlund, is a '5-point' Calvinist, but I have been absolutely loving his work recently and enjoy his videos very much too! In no way is this an issue to divide on!

I do think the hyper-Calvinist attitude is very tricky, though, many can make it their whole message. I believe hyper-Calvinism and its implications are not Scriptural nor are they found in the Apostolic Fathers. Since you are a Classical Calvinist, we can defend the amazing grace, goodness, and love of God to others in this world together, explaining thoughtfully how the culpability of sin rests on us.

I am open to considering your position! I believe Molinism makes a great deal of sense to recognize both God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. I am willing to consider other perspectives, though. However, I do not see this as a primary issue in any sense, so I'm not devoting a lot of time to it right now.

I look forward to engaging with you further in the future about this issue! I am quite busy at the moment, and I really do not have the time to keep up with this thread, but I hope we can all make some progress. From what I've skimmed on the 7th page to understand the context of your message, I appreciate how we're digging into history, too, to see the fruit of Calvinism and the intentions of those who aligned with John Calvin. I think he did incredible things to help reform the Church!

Oh, also, the only Systematic Theology textbook I own is thoroughly Calvinist, haha! I certainly am open to Calvinist perspectives. I simply want to know who God is and worship Him. I do take a different stance than you on this specific soteriological issue, but the posture of my heart is open if I am indeed mistaken.

Since the mechanics of how God's choices and our choices work together are not thoroughly expressed in Scripture as perhaps we would like them to be, I think the best step moving forward is to consider the perspectives of those best acquainted with the teachings of the Apostles in the early church. Our attitude throughout this should be distinct, too; we should have openness and humility before God as He presents Himself to us, and seek Him in prayer.

Indeed, by Grace Alone in Christ Alone!
May the Lord bless you and keep you!
Sorry for the delay, I am dealing with some physical injuries from an industrial injury that occurred. Yeah, no problem no rush, as we can share and learn from one another. My favorite theologian is Michael Horton. He has a excellent website (whitehorseinn.org) and podcast. He wrote a lot of books to which I own most of them. I also read everything I can get on hands on. Because being well informed of all sides of these debates is essential to know what's at stake. One thing I have come to understand is that there is no novelty in these debates, maybe issues are dressed up in new clothes but same old arguments.

Thee other thing I keep encountering in these forums is how often people have no clue of what Classical Calvinism teaches. So instead of doing their due diligence people caricature it in attempt to disprove it. But to be fair I did the same exact thing when I was an Arminian. But if one really seeks the truth one should not be scared. Which lead me to the Doctrines of Grace that Calvinism holds. My favorite topic is Justification by Faith by Alone the crux of the Gospel. Because if one doesn't get this right nothing else matters.

I'll leave you with one of my favorite quotes:

"Liberalism is always in the imperative (Law) mood; whereas Christianity is always in the Triumphant Indicative (Gospel)! Liberalism always appeals to the human will; Christianity announces first, a Gracious act of God. What we need is not exhortation, but a Gospel, not directions for saving myself, but knowledge of the facts on how God has saved me and you. Have you any good news? I know your exhortation will not help me, but if anything has been done to save me, will you not tell me the facts?" Gresham Machen

God Bless you and yours!

By Grace Alone in Christ through Faith Alone!​
 
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ladodgers6

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No, I don’t see any reason to expand on a very plain & simple statement as “I say these things so that you may be saved” that couldn’t possibly be interpreted any other way. There’s no metaphors, it’s not a parable, it’s a plain and simple statement.
As I thought. No further need to continue this conversation. I bid you a farewell.
 
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