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Please help me figure this out!

tonychanyt

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Hello everyone!
I am really struggling with the concepts in Calvinism.
Right, I identify with you. This is how I deal with it:

Calvinism, like other isms, contains overgeneralizations. Instead of accepting or rejecting Calvinism wholesale, I look at one given specific issue at a time.

Step 1: Describe the issue as specifically as possible without using any terms that are not found in the Bible.

Can you do that?
 
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ladodgers6

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It means that they were ungodly people refusing to listen to Him. What do you think it means?
Before I reply to your question. Can you expand further?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Before I reply to your question. Can you expand further?
No, I don’t see any reason to expand on a very plain & simple statement as “I say these things so that you may be saved” that couldn’t possibly be interpreted any other way. There’s no metaphors, it’s not a parable, it’s a plain and simple statement.
 
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maves

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Hello, nice to meet you as well!
I apologize for my late response. I was out of the country.

I must also be honest, I haven't been reading this thread since the last time I posted. I love so many Classical Calvinists, and, after all, this view does not compromise or obscure the Gospel, so clearly, we are brothers and sisters running the same race; we have been saved by the same Gospel. One of my favorite authors, Gavin Ortlund, is a '5-point' Calvinist, but I have been absolutely loving his work recently and enjoy his videos very much too! In no way is this an issue to divide on!

I do think the hyper-Calvinist attitude is very tricky, though, many can make it their whole message. I believe hyper-Calvinism and its implications are not Scriptural nor are they found in the Apostolic Fathers. Since you are a Classical Calvinist, we can defend the amazing grace, goodness, and love of God to others in this world together, explaining thoughtfully how the culpability of sin rests on us.

I am open to considering your position! I believe Molinism makes a great deal of sense to recognize both God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. I am willing to consider other perspectives, though. However, I do not see this as a primary issue in any sense, so I'm not devoting a lot of time to it right now.

I look forward to engaging with you further in the future about this issue! I am quite busy at the moment, and I really do not have the time to keep up with this thread, but I hope we can all make some progress. From what I've skimmed on the 7th page to understand the context of your message, I appreciate how we're digging into history, too, to see the fruit of Calvinism and the intentions of those who aligned with John Calvin. I think he did incredible things to help reform the Church!

Oh, also, the only Systematic Theology textbook I own is thoroughly Calvinist, haha! I certainly am open to Calvinist perspectives. I simply want to know who God is and worship Him. I do take a different stance than you on this specific soteriological issue, but the posture of my heart is open if I am indeed mistaken.

Since the mechanics of how God's choices and our choices work together are not thoroughly expressed in Scripture as perhaps we would like them to be, I think the best step moving forward is to consider the perspectives of those best acquainted with the teachings of the Apostles in the early church. Our attitude throughout this should be distinct, too; we should have openness and humility before God as He presents Himself to us, and seek Him in prayer.

Indeed, by Grace Alone in Christ Alone!
May the Lord bless you and keep you!
 
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ladodgers6

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Sorry for the delay, I am dealing with some physical injuries from an industrial injury that occurred. Yeah, no problem no rush, as we can share and learn from one another. My favorite theologian is Michael Horton. He has a excellent website (whitehorseinn.org) and podcast. He wrote a lot of books to which I own most of them. I also read everything I can get on hands on. Because being well informed of all sides of these debates is essential to know what's at stake. One thing I have come to understand is that there is no novelty in these debates, maybe issues are dressed up in new clothes but same old arguments.

Thee other thing I keep encountering in these forums is how often people have no clue of what Classical Calvinism teaches. So instead of doing their due diligence people caricature it in attempt to disprove it. But to be fair I did the same exact thing when I was an Arminian. But if one really seeks the truth one should not be scared. Which lead me to the Doctrines of Grace that Calvinism holds. My favorite topic is Justification by Faith by Alone the crux of the Gospel. Because if one doesn't get this right nothing else matters.

I'll leave you with one of my favorite quotes:

"Liberalism is always in the imperative (Law) mood; whereas Christianity is always in the Triumphant Indicative (Gospel)! Liberalism always appeals to the human will; Christianity announces first, a Gracious act of God. What we need is not exhortation, but a Gospel, not directions for saving myself, but knowledge of the facts on how God has saved me and you. Have you any good news? I know your exhortation will not help me, but if anything has been done to save me, will you not tell me the facts?" Gresham Machen

God Bless you and yours!

By Grace Alone in Christ through Faith Alone!​
 
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ladodgers6

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As I thought. No further need to continue this conversation. I bid you a farewell.
 
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