Please forgive if this comes off as a foolish question.

[Eila]

Scripture and translation.

Can you be more specific?

Sure, I get that. Now we just have to determine what was nailed to the cross.

I would think exploring what torah means would make more sense as a starting place.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

By not ignoring the totality of the Gospels.

Are you suggesting that Matthew 5 is in error?

"For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."​

"Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled. Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things."​

The disciples witnessed Christ as the fulfillment of the law. Not one jot or tittle passed until all was accomplished. The law is not a smorgasborg from which you can pick and choose which ones you like and don't like.

What was fulfilled again? Did "all" the law in the law of Moses concern Jesus? What about the prophecies? The Psalms?

Yes, indeed, they all pointed to Christ.

BFA

 

[RND]

Are you suggesting that Matthew 5 is in error?

"For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."​

"Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled. Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things."​

The disciples witnessed Christ as the fulfillment of the law. Not one jot or tittle passed until all was accomplished. The law is not a smorgasborg from which you can pick and choose which ones you like and don't like

.

Of course not! Luke 24 tells us plainly what was fulfilled.

Luk 24:44 ¶ And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.

Line upon line......

Yes, indeed, they all pointed to Christ.

How did a woman menstruating, being declared unclean and not being allowed in the Temple point to Jesus?

 

[RND]

Can you be more specific?

The word "torah" means different things in contaxt to how it is being used. It's a 'genaric' term for 'law' in may cases.

I would think exploring what torah means would make more sense as a starting place.

I think you are 100% correct.

 

[sentipente]

The word "torah" means different things in contaxt to how it is being used. It's a 'genaric' term for 'law' in may cases.

The question is whether that is the meaning that was attached to it when it was used in that text.

 

[JonMiller]

Thanks, I get the feeling that the other ones do not based from the answer I got. Trying to figure out which end is up with this.

Not all traditional SDAs beleive in the trinity. Neither do all progressives.

JM

 

[Eila]

The word "torah" means different things in contaxt to how it is being used. It's a 'genaric' term for 'law' in may cases.

So in the context of Isaiah 8 what do you think torah means?

Here is Isaiah 8 quoted:

"1Then the LORD said to me, "Take for yourself a large tablet and write on it in ordinary letters: Swift is the booty, speedy is the prey. 2"And I will take to Myself faithful witnesses for testimony, Uriah the priest and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah."
3So I approached the prophetess, and she conceived and gave birth to a son. Then the LORD said to me, "Name him Maher-shalal-hash-baz;
4for before the boy knows how to cry out 'My father' or 'My mother,' the wealth of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria will be carried away before the king of Assyria."
5Again the LORD spoke to me further, saying,
6"Inasmuch as these people have rejected the gently flowing waters of Shiloah
And rejoice in Rezin and the son of Remaliah;
7"Now therefore, behold, the Lord is about to bring on them the strong and abundant waters of the Euphrates,
Even the king of Assyria and all his glory;
And it will rise up over all its channels and go over all its banks.
8"Then it will sweep on into Judah, it will overflow and pass through,
It will reach even to the neck;
And the spread of its wings will fill the breadth of your land, O Immanuel.

9"Be broken, O peoples, and be shattered;
And give ear, all remote places of the earth.
Gird yourselves, yet be shattered;
Gird yourselves, yet be shattered.
10"Devise a plan, but it will be thwarted;
State a proposal, but it will not stand,
For God is with us." 11For thus the LORD spoke to me with mighty power and instructed me not to walk in the way of this people, saying,
12"You are not to say, 'It is a conspiracy!'
In regard to all that this people call a conspiracy,
And you are not to fear what they fear or be in dread of it.
13"It is the LORD of hosts whom you should regard as holy.
And He shall be your fear,
And He shall be your dread.
14"Then He shall become a sanctuary;
But to both the houses of Israel, a stone to strike and a rock to stumble over,
And a snare and a trap for the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
15"Many will stumble over them,
Then they will fall and be broken;
They will even be snared and caught."
16Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.
17And I will wait for the LORD who is hiding His face from the house of Jacob; I will even look eagerly for Him.
18Behold, I and the children whom the LORD has given me are for signs and wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, who dwells on Mount Zion.
19When they say to you, "Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter," should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
20To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn.
21They will pass through the land hard-pressed and famished, and it will turn out that when they are hungry, they will be enraged and curse their king and their God as they face upward.
22Then they will look to the earth, and behold, distress and darkness, the gloom of anguish; and they will be driven away into darkness."

 

[RND]

So in the context of Isaiah 8 what do you think torah means?

This:

#8451 towrah or torah {to-raw'}; from 'yarah' (3384); a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch:--law.

Ella, do you know the difference between the Decalogue and the Pentateuch?

 

[Eila]

This:

#8451 towrah or torah {to-raw'}; from 'yarah' (3384); a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch:--law.

Ella, do you know the difference between the Decalogue and the Pentateuch?

Yes, I know the difference.

You had mentioned that the interpretation of the word Torah was based on the context. But it appears as though you are giving multiple definitions for it's use in the context of Isaiah 8. Am I correct to assume that you believe the context Isaiah 8 is referring to the Decalogue and the Pentateuch?

 

[RND]

Yes, I know the difference.

You had mentioned that the interpretation of the word Torah was based on the context. But it appears as though you are giving multiple definitions for it's use in the context of Isaiah 8. Am I correct to assume that you believe the context Isaiah 8 is referring to the Decalogue and the Pentateuch?

No, that would be incorrect. What other words were hightlight by me Ella? A precept or statute correct. In relation to the paragraph what "precepts" can we see that are being ignored by those that should have been listening to God? More important, I think is the understanding that these precepts really haven't changed.

Isa 8:19 ¶ And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.

Isa 8:21 And they shall pass through it, hardly bestead and hungry: and it shall come to pass, that when they shall be hungry, they shall fret themselves, and curse their king and their God, and look upward.

Isa 8:22 And they shall look unto the earth; and behold trouble and darkness, dimness of anguish; and [they shall be] driven to darkness.


I hightlighted the interesting aspect to me, because it appears to be reiterating what God has already warned the COI.

Deu 28:14 And thou shalt not go aside from any of the words which I command thee this day, [to] the right hand, or [to] the left, to go after other gods to serve them.


So for me, we can say that Is 8:20 "To the "precepts of God" and the testimony (covenant; i.e. testament)........"

 

[JohnT]

Sure it can John. Common sense plays a huge part as well.

BTW John you should have alot of experience with that being a huge defender of Catholicism and all. Maybe you'd care to elaborate of some of these things not found in scripture:

1) The kissing of the Pope's feet

2) Worship of the cross, images and relics was authorized

blah blah blah

RND

You are so totally off base on this!!

It is obvious from your writings that you exhibit great hostility to Catholics.

It is obvious from your writings that you fail to answer your heretical assumption from Scripture.

It is obvious from your writings that you would rather attack another poster instead of dealing with an issue.

It is obvious from your writings that you haven't a leg to stand on to support your contention.

In stating this, understand that I am not making a reciprocal attack, merely accurately describing your postings. However, if what you wrote______________.

It is far easier to deal with the truth rather than to obfuscate it. Try it.

If you are unable to answer a question, just say so, OK?

 

[RND]

RND

You are so totally off base on this!!

It is obvious from your writings that you exhibit great hostility to Catholics.

Nope. Hostility towards false doctrines.

It is obvious from your writings that you fail to answer your heretical assumption from Scripture.

Nope. I've posted on it many times.

It is obvious from your writings that you would rather attack another poster instead of dealing with an issue.

No attack. I said you I thought you were " a huge defender of Catholicism...." That's an opinion, not an attack.

It is obvious from your writings that you haven't a leg to stand on to support your contention.

Sure I do.

In stating this, understand that I am not making a reciprocal attack, merely accurately describing your postings. However, if what you wrote______________.

Nope, your attacking. But that's ok. No worries.

It is far easier to deal with the truth rather than to obfuscate it. Try it.

Sure, I agree. Will you be addressing any of the points on false doctrine I posted?

If you are unable to answer a question, just say so, OK?

What was the question again John?

You must have another, greater source? could it be _____? Nah, I won't try to taunt you or run down someone......

Gee John, what might or have been trying to insinuate here?

 

[RND]

Double post.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

.Of course not! Luke 24 tells us plainly what was fulfilled.

Luk 24:44 ¶ And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.

Line upon line......

You seem to be making the assumption that the law of Moses did not include the ten commandments. Please set out the Scriptural basis that would lead one to reach such a conclusion.

BFA

 

[RND]

You seem to be making the assumption that the law of Moses did not include the ten commandments.

No assumption. In the book Moses wrote he certainly listed the Ten Commandments.

Now, which one of those Ten Commandments pointed to the coming Messiah and how did it point to the coming Messiah? Or was there something very symbolic about the two stone tables being kept on the "inside" of the Ark of the Covenant and the "book" being kept on the "outside?"

Please set out the Scriptural basis that would lead one to reach such a conclusion.

Why would I? I haven't made such a conclusion.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

No assumption. In the book Moses wrote he certainly listed the Ten Commandments.

Then you must also agree that Luke 24:44 refers to all God-given laws, including the ten commandments, and not just the laws that some may refer to as "ceremonial."

Since we agree that Matthew 5:18 and Luke 24:44 are referring to all of God's laws including the ten commandments, I reiterate my question to you. How can you claim that some laws have been fulfilled and others have not, when Christ clearly teaches that not one jot or tittle will pass from the law until ALL is fulfilled? This question remains unanswered.

Now, which one of those Ten Commandments pointed to the coming Messiah and how did it point to the coming Messiah?

Let's start with #4. Colossians 2 is clear that the sabbath was a shadow pointing to the reality. This makes sense in light of the fact that Jesus Christ is our source of rest (see Matt. 11:28).

Or was there something very symbolic about the two stone tables being kept on the "inside" of the Ark of the Covenant and the "book" being kept on the "outside?"

The Scriptures are often clear when something is to be viewed metaphorically. Consider Galatians 4:21-31. This passage is quite clear that Hagar is to be viewed as metaphorically representing the covenant given at Sinai. There is nothign to suggest that there is anything significant about the placement of tablets and books. In fact, the book itself contained the commandments (thus confirming once again that there is no distinction betwen old covenant laws).

BFA

 

[RND]

Then you must also agree that Luke 24:44 refers to all God-given laws, including the ten commandments, and not just the laws that some may refer to as "ceremonial."

Nope. Just the ones that pointed to the comming Messiah.

Since we agree that Matthew 5:18 and Luke 24:44 are referring to all of God's laws including the ten commandments, I reiterate my question to you.

Bad assumption.

How can you claim that some laws have been fulfilled and others have not, when Christ clearly teaches that not one jot or tittle will pass from the law until ALL is fulfilled? This question remains unanswered.

Which 'laws' pointed to Christ? Which one's didn't?

Let's start with #4. Colossians 2 is clear that the sabbath was a shadow pointing to the reality.

Which sabbath?

This makes sense in light of the fact that Jesus Christ is our source of rest (see Matt. 11:28).

He's also Lord of the sabbath and as such kept the sabbath.

The Scriptures are often clear when something is to be viewed metaphorically. Consider Galatians 4:21-31. This passage is quite clear that Hagar is to be viewed as metaphorically representing the covenant given at Sinai. There is nothign to suggest that there is anything significant about the placement of tablets and books. In fact, the book itself contained the commandments (thus confirming once again that there is no distinction betwen old covenant laws).

See Galatians 5: 1-7. Where do find the 'laws' regarding circumcision? In stone or book form? Also, see Galatians 6.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Nope. Just the ones that pointed to the comming Messiah.

So, please share with us the Scriptures that confirm you belief that Matthew 5 and Luke 24 is referring only to the laws that point to the coming Messiah. Then, show us the Scriptures that confirm which laws those are.

BFA

 

[RND]

So, please share with us the Scriptures that confirm you belief that Matthew 5 and Luke 24 is referring only to the laws that point to the coming Messiah. Then, show us the Scriptures that confirm which laws those are.

BFA

I've already done that. You'll have to re-read the thread so I don't have to repeat myself.

Read Luke 24:44 again. The verse tells you specifically where the prophecies regarding the coming Messiah were found.

Luk 24:44 ¶ And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.

Tell me BFA1, how does a 'law' that says, "A man shall not take his father's wife, nor discover his father's skirt" point to the coming Messiah?

How does a law that states, "Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard" point to the coming Messiah?

How does a law that states, "And if ye offer a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD, ye shall offer it at your own will" point to the coming Messiah?

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Read Luke 24:44 again. The verse tells you specifically where the prophecies regarding the coming Messiah were found.

And we've agreed that the law of Moses includes the ten commandments. Therefore, we must also agree that both Matthew 5 and Luke 24 are referring to all God-given laws, including the ten commandments.

Tell me BFA1, how does a 'law' that says, "A man shall not take his father's wife, nor discover his father's skirt" point to the coming Messiah?

How does a law that states, "Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard" point to the coming Messiah?

How does a law that states, "And if ye offer a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD, ye shall offer it at your own will" point to the coming Messiah?

Why must these questions be answered in order to understand Matthew 5 and Luke 24? Luke 24 is completely silent on the issue of whether or not laws point to the coming Messiah. You seem to have hand-written that requirement into the text.

I'm still trying to figure out how one jot and tittle can pass when you claim that not everything has been accomplished.

BFA