Please Explain a Soul

[EnemyOfReason]

Every time I hear about NDE studies there is never any quotations nor am I able to find any sources of research just speculative neuroscience.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Every time I hear about NDE studies there is never any quotations nor am I able to find any sources of research just speculative neuroscience.

There are genuine attempts the scientifically study NDEs. It sounds impossible, but one of the claims of most NDEs is the "out of body experience" where the subject claims to have been hovering over their dead body and observing the actions of the hospital staff trying to resuscitate them.

Since "sight" is something we can actually test, a few studies have been done where objects have been placed in a position that allows them to be viewed from above (so someone hovering near the top of the room could see it.). So far, out of hundreds of subjects claiming an NDE, none have ever been able to identity there objects...which lends itself to the conclusion that no "out of body experience" is taking place.

 

[Noxot]

So literally, you feel that the soul is somehow "restricted by the body" and once the body dies, the soul is "free" and fully capable of experiencing the world. Got it.

So why have a body at all then? Clearly we're all better off just as souls...what's the point of having a body?

I'm having a great day, thank you lol.

to have an experience that would not happen if you were not so restricted. why do humans like to play different video games? why do humans like to watch tv? why do humans do things the way they do things? if I want to have a human experience then I need a human body. if I want to have the experience of a different kind of being such as an angel, then I need to be whatever an angel is. if I wanna have the experience of being a dog I have to be a dog. then I can see it from different perspectives. a human with a pet dog and an angel watching it all happen from some other place, and doing what ever it is that angels do. though it would be far more complex than that since reality is far more complex.

restrictions are not necessarily bad.

i just found this on youtube. it is a person that is channeling an alien named 'bashar'... the most important part about a certain aspect of what is a spirit and soul starts at 8:26 though this youtube clip is talking about other layers of reality as well... but I think it gave a good explanation for what a human soul and spirit is.

youtube.com/watch?v=JuIJLrmDGLQ

 

[Lollerskates]

So literally, you feel that the soul is somehow "restricted by the body" and once the body dies, the soul is "free" and fully capable of experiencing the world. Got it.

So why have a body at all then? Clearly we're all better off just as souls...what's the point of having a body?

I'm having a great day, thank you lol.

Hi, I know that you weren't responding to me, but I wanted to provide some "insight" as per the philosophy/spirituality of the discussion. This is especially concerning your latter paragraph.

God is natural; what seems like miracles to us is just "science" to Him. And, He doesn't do "magic," as in Djinn/genies/immediate wishes. Everything happens in its season - natural, yet poweful. And, as He created this universe - including the earth, when He made us, He knew that we would need an earth body. Look at the human composition: it is very close to the composition of elements and compounds found on earth. Why? Because this body is an earth body. If we were on Saturn, we would have a Saturian body. If we were in space, we would need a magnetic field to protect us from cosmic rays. Whatever physical place you are in, you need "protection."

Now, spirits inhabit bodies. The "soul" is the essence of "you" - it is (in my opinion) separate from the "spirit," which is still quasi-tangiable. So, let's use "spirit." The spirit is "free" when the body dies, because it is back in heaven. It is just a matter of consequence that the spiritual body is the appropriate "body" for heaven.

So why have a body at all then? Clearly we're all better off just as souls...what's the point of having a body?

Yea, that is a "what is the meaning of life" type of question.

The end of the book of Ecclesiastes sums that question up: simplistic yet complex.

 

[Davian]

Your post is there for all to read. I'm not required to quote anything at all. I could just respond with a wall of text. I quote to bring focus to how I am interpreting you and what I am specifically responding to. If I have misunderstood you, then clarify it.

Alternatively, you could just answer the questions as they are put to you.

Because you seem to think neurology is the way to study "self". I proposed it as part of "self", so I would expect your method to address that.

I will rephrase: why would I try to prove a negative?

I'm sure you think my opinion is invalid. As it happens, I'm not undergoing any cognitive dissonance at the moment, so I think it is valid.

By what measure do you consider yourself free of cognitive dissonance? Introspection?

Scientific. Just as geology is not the science to explore "self", neither is neuroscience. To use the analogy I've used all through this thread, using neuroscience to explore "self" is like someone checking the CPU in their computer to figure out where the bug is in a program.

I do not see the similarity between the functioning of the brain and digital circuitry/software. Your analogy is lost on me.

If any science is suited to the study of "self", it's psychology ... not that that thrills me either.

When I refer to "self" as a scientific term, I am thinking of the "phenomenal self-model" definition developed by philosophers such as Thomas Metzinger, working with neuroscientists.

Self-model theory of subjectivity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The [phenomenal self-model] is an entity that “actually exists, not only as a distinct theoretical entity but something that will be empirically discovered in the future- for instance, as a specific stage of the global neural dynamics in the human brain” . Involved in the PSM are three phenomenal properties that must occur in order to explain the concept of the self. The first is mineness, “a higher order property of particular forms of phenomenal content,” or the idea of ownership.[3] The second is perspectivalness, which is “a global, structural property of phenomenal space as a whole”.[4] More simply, it is what is commonly referred to as the ecological self, the immovable center of perception. The third phenomenal property is selfhood, which is “the phenomenal target property” or the idea of the self over time. It is the property of phenomenal selfhood that plays the most important role in creating the fictional self and the first person perspective. Metzinger defines the first person perspective as the “existence of single coherent and temporally stable model of reality which is representationally centered around or on a single coherent and temporally stable phenomenal subject”."

So, science - neuroscience - is suited to exploring the "self" as they have defined it.

What is your scientific definition of "self" when you say that neuroscience is an invalid method for exploring and describing the "self"?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Hi, I know that you weren't responding to me, but I wanted to provide some "insight" as per the philosophy/spirituality of the discussion. This is especially concerning your latter paragraph.

God is natural; what seems like miracles to us is just "science" to Him. And, He doesn't do "magic," as in Djinn/genies/immediate wishes. Everything happens in its season - natural, yet poweful. And, as He created this universe - including the earth, when He made us, He knew that we would need an earth body. Look at the human composition: it is very close to the composition of elements and compounds found on earth. Why? Because this body is an earth body. If we were on Saturn, we would have a Saturian body. If we were in space, we would need a magnetic field to protect us from cosmic rays. Whatever physical place you are in, you need "protection."

Now, spirits inhabit bodies. The "soul" is the essence of "you" - it is (in my opinion) separate from the "spirit," which is still quasi-tangiable. So, let's use "spirit." The spirit is "free" when the body dies, because it is back in heaven. It is just a matter of consequence that the spiritual body is the appropriate "body" for heaven.




Yea, that is a "what is the meaning of life" type of question.

The end of the book of Ecclesiastes sums that question up: simplistic yet complex.

So...what you're getting at is I should read Ecclesiastes...again.

 

[Ana the Ist]

to have an experience that would not happen if you were not so restricted. why do humans like to play different video games? why do humans like to watch tv? why do humans do things the way they do things? if I want to have a human experience then I need a human body. if I want to have the experience of a different kind of being such as an angel, then I need to be whatever an angel is. if I wanna have the experience of being a dog I have to be a dog. then I can see it from different perspectives. a human with a pet dog and an angel watching it all happen from some other place, and doing what ever it is that angels do. though it would be far more complex than that since reality is far more complex.

restrictions are not necessarily bad.

i just found this on youtube. it is a person that is channeling an alien named 'bashar'... the most important part about a certain aspect of what is a spirit and soul starts at 8:26 though this youtube clip is talking about other layers of reality as well... but I think it gave a good explanation for what a human soul and spirit is.

youtube.com/watch?v=JuIJLrmDGLQ

I really should post somewhere on my profile that I don't watch linked videos. Save people some time. Anyways...

You said we need a "human body" to have a "human experience". If your soul/spirit can see, smell, hear, taste, think, touch, etc...then clearly we don't need a "human body" to have a "human experience". All those human experiences are a result of those functions...which everyone seems to think the soul/spirit is capable of.

So I ask again...why the body at all? No one has given me a function that the body performs that the soul/spirit cannot.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Dunno what happened there. This was my response in the post above...



I really should post somewhere on my profile that I don't watch linked videos. Save people some time. Anyways...

You said we need a "human body" to have a "human experience". If your soul/spirit can see, smell, hear, taste, think, touch, etc...then clearly we don't need a "human body" to have a "human experience". All those human experiences are a result of those functions...which everyone seems to think the soul/spirit is capable of.

So I ask again...why the body at all? No one has given me a function that the body performs that the soul/spirit cannot

 

[AnnaRose93]

(This is response to general theme of thread and original post. Haven't read through most of the comments)

I have done a lot of inward contemplation on this very matter for a while now, and have come to some sort of "conclusion" that I feel is as far as I can get in understanding at the moment.

It is my personal belief, through much thought, that we as 'humans' live in three separate (but still conjoined) planes of existence: Physical, Mental, and Spiritual.
While I can not yet explain which is better than the rest, or if all are needed as much as another, I believe each one is important in itself.

Our PHYSICAL existence is perhaps the one that needs the least explanation, simply because it offers us the (arguably) most lucid senses we have available. Touch, sight, smell, etc. Think of it as the first layer of our existence. The easiest to recognize, the one that we know everything by.

The word 'know'.
knowledge.
I believe knowledge is the biggest link between our physical self, and our MENTAL self. Memory (knowledge, wisdom, the whole shebang) is based on the senses we experienced during a specific time in our life. The physical senses we experienced - and while we could feel those senses at the time, our physical being has no recollections once the moment is gone. Our Mental Existence is - the thoughts behind our actions - The wrapping that keeps us together, and reminds ourselves of who we are, and what we are doing. The second layer of our being. This is where things begin to get complicated, solely because, while we can relate with others on physical experiences, mental experiences are unique to the individual. we all think differently - we all live in the same mental existence, yet not all are on equal levels in the mental existence. Some people - who can be referred to as psychics, mind readers, etc - are able to connect with others in the mental plane, on a level not reachable by your every day 'human'. They are able to communicate with that individual's mental being, perhaps without the individual not even realizing. Imagine if we could all connect on a mental level

It is my belief that The third realm of existence, and definitely the most intricate and difficult to explain and understand, is the SPIRITUAL existence. It is the third and final layer of our being. The shroud of mystery that gives us a sense of discernment and accountability. We all stand in different levels of the spiritual realm of existence - much more so than the mental plane - and thus it is (probably) impossible to connect with another 'human' on a spiritual level, barring unnatural, spiritual power, brought on by an outside force.
I believe that in the realm of the spirit, there is both an affinity for light and for darkness. I believe everyone generally gravitates more towards one or the other - which GREATLY effects our mental and physical plains - like a chain reaction. One with an affinity for light will in turn have more positive thoughts and outlook on life, and following such, will be a happy and bright person on the outside.
In contrast, those with affinities towards darkness, will have more selfish and sometimes even chaotic thought patterns, and in turn will be unfavorable in the physical world as well.

However I also believe that a person affiliated with darkness can be a 'good' person. and vice-versa
I believe if you can realize which affinity you lean towards, and find a way to tap into that for yourself, you can use it to do wonderful things that better mankind - and yourself.

that is my viewpoint on life. it is my hope that, in the craziness above,
you (read: any who read this) can find and discern for yourself something that you can apply to your life, or just lead you to finding your own better understanding of yourself and those around you.

Peace & Love
-Anna

 

[Noxot]

Dunno what happened there. This was my response in the post above...



I really should post somewhere on my profile that I don't watch linked videos. Save people some time. Anyways...

You said we need a "human body" to have a "human experience". If your soul/spirit can see, smell, hear, taste, think, touch, etc...then clearly we don't need a "human body" to have a "human experience". All those human experiences are a result of those functions...which everyone seems to think the soul/spirit is capable of.

So I ask again...why the body at all? No one has given me a function that the body performs that the soul/spirit cannot

if you link a youtube video without the www. part then it does not mess up the CF forums as bad but apparently nothing can be displayed after the youtube link.


I would say that the "soul" that smells and sees things like the physical body does means that it is still in some kind of body and in some kind of reality that is like unto this human reality that i'm typing in.

just because you may "see, smell, hear, taste, think, touch, etc" does not mean the human body is not needed for a human experience. you can't mix human experience with other types of realities and then say one is not needed because it is obviously needed or wanted because it is existing.

no matter how much you say "it is not needed"... the truth is that you are not going to play world of warcraft unless you subscribed to the game and made a character and started in the newbie zone. you abide by the rules and programming of the game or you don't exist in the game. just because I got a character in everquest that can do the same kinds of things as my character in WOW does.. does not make the game of WOW or the game of EQ the same thing in some aspects. to say only one game is needed is to deny reality, the reality that there are a lot of games out there and each with their own programming and rules and community and things you can do therein, ectect. if you have ever played different games you will find that even though some things stay the same from game to game, other things are quite different.

why do some people blindfold themselves when they aim for the target? maybe because it is too easy without the blinders?

I can't understand your questioning very well and I don't see the driving point behind what you ask. i feel that i am missing a large part of the reasoning in you that is asking the question. what are you trying to boil this down to? I suppose my not understanding you is partly because you and I probably have very different views of reality.

 

[Ana the Ist]

if you link a youtube video without the www. part then it does not mess up the CF forums as bad but apparently nothing can be displayed after the youtube link.


I would say that the "soul" that smells and sees things like the physical body does means that it is still in some kind of body and in some kind of reality that is like unto this human reality that i'm typing in.

just because you may "see, smell, hear, taste, think, touch, etc" does not mean the human body is not needed for a human experience. you can't mix human experience with other types of realities and then say one is not needed because it is obviously needed or wanted because it is existing.

"You can't mix human experiences with other types of realities."

So what you're saying is that the soul/spirit doesn't exist in this reality? I don't think that's what you mean. I omitted the rest because, well, those are examples of this reality as well.

 

[Noxot]

"You can't mix human experiences with other types of realities."

So what you're saying is that the soul/spirit doesn't exist in this reality? I don't think that's what you mean. I omitted the rest because, well, those are examples of this reality as well.

the things you omitted are not to be looked at in a specific literal sense but in a more liberal symbolic sense.

the word 'reality' is a very vague term. this place we are in, what you call reality, is part of the reality of spirit. nature came from spirit. the soul is like a house for the spirit or a painting for the spirit. the physical part of the soul is the physical body. soul is the part of the spirit that 'becomes' a being. the soul is the female and the spirit is the male and they are one. the spirit shapes the soul to the degree that the soul agrees to be in union with it, or the soul can be shaped by nature or other souls as well. the soul is a garden or a wasteland, depending on what is in it, depending on what keeps it, depending on who rules over her or who her husband is. the soul is a kingdom. the soul is a world. as the higher nature of the soul becomes manifest, the spirit becomes manifest. the soul is darkness and the spirit is light. the soul is a crystallized version of spirit and the spirit is like the sea. the soul is clay and the spirit is the one who shapes the clay. you can not have one without the other. you can't have physical reality without spirit or soul because physical reality is created by spirit. nature does not contain spirit or soul, it is only part of it.

I shall throw out a few quotes from nikolai berdyaev to show you how different noxots world view might be from Ana the Ist :

Man's highest consciousness of himself is not explicable by the world of nature and remains a mystery to that world. ... Man is not only of this world but of another world; not only of necessity, but of freedom; not only out of nature, but from God....

Spirit is, as it were, the breath of God penetrating man's being and communicating a higher dignity, a higher quality of his existence, inner independence and unity....

Spiritual experience is the supreme reality in man's life: in it the divine is not proven, it is simply shown.

The reality of spirit is witnessed by the whole experience of mankind, by all its higher life. Denial of this reality is blindness and deafness to realities, the incapacity to distinguish of being, or incapacity to describe that which is distinguished. Spirit is otherwise real than the world of natural things. This reality is not proven, but evidenced by those who are capable of distinguishing qualities.

Man may know himself from above or from below, from his own light, from the divine element within him, and he may know himself from his darkness, from his elemental-subconscious, from the demonic element within himself. And he may do this because he is a dual and a contradictory being, a being polarized to the highest degree, god-like and beast-like, high and low, free and slave, capable of rising to the heights or of falling, capable of great love and sacrifice or of great cruelty and limitless egotism.

 

[Ana the Ist]

the things you omitted are not to be looked at in a specific literal sense but in a more liberal symbolic sense.

the word 'reality' is a very vague term. this place we are in, what you call reality, is part of the reality of spirit. nature came from spirit. the soul is like a house for the spirit or a painting for the spirit. the physical part of the soul is the physical body. soul is the part of the spirit that 'becomes' a being. the soul is the female and the spirit is the male and they are one. the spirit shapes the soul to the degree that the soul agrees to be in union with it, or the soul can be shaped by nature or other souls as well. the soul is a garden or a wasteland, depending on what is in it, depending on what keeps it, depending on who rules over her or who her husband is. the soul is a kingdom. the soul is a world. as the higher nature of the soul becomes manifest, the spirit becomes manifest. the soul is darkness and the spirit is light. the soul is a crystallized version of spirit and the spirit is like the sea. the soul is clay and the spirit is the one who shapes the clay. you can not have one without the other. you can't have physical reality without spirit or soul because physical reality is created by spirit. nature does not contain spirit or soul, it is only part of it.

I shall throw out a few quotes from nikolai berdyaev to show you how different noxots world view might be from Ana the Ist :

Man's highest consciousness of himself is not explicable by the world of nature and remains a mystery to that world. ... Man is not only of this world but of another world; not only of necessity, but of freedom; not only out of nature, but from God....

Spirit is, as it were, the breath of God penetrating man's being and communicating a higher dignity, a higher quality of his existence, inner independence and unity....

Spiritual experience is the supreme reality in man's life: in it the divine is not proven, it is simply shown.

The reality of spirit is witnessed by the whole experience of mankind, by all its higher life. Denial of this reality is blindness and deafness to realities, the incapacity to distinguish of being, or incapacity to describe that which is distinguished. Spirit is otherwise real than the world of natural things. This reality is not proven, but evidenced by those who are capable of distinguishing qualities.

Man may know himself from above or from below, from his own light, from the divine element within him, and he may know himself from his darkness, from his elemental-subconscious, from the demonic element within himself. And he may do this because he is a dual and a contradictory being, a being polarized to the highest degree, god-like and beast-like, high and low, free and slave, capable of rising to the heights or of falling, capable of great love and sacrifice or of great cruelty and limitless egotism.

Your world view may be different from mine Noxot, but our realities are the same. Thanks for your answer.

 

[Mark51]

The connotations that the English “soul” commonly carries in the minds of most persons are not in agreement with the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek words as used by the inspired Bible writers.

The original-language terms (Heb., ne′phesh [נפׁש]; Gr., psy·khe′ [ψυχή]) as used in the Scriptures show “soul” to be a person, an animal, or the life that a person or an animal enjoys. In other words, it is not that we have a soul, but that we are a soul.

The difficulty lies in the fact that the meanings popularly attached to the English word “soul” stem primarily, not from the Hebrew or Christian Greek Scriptures, but from ancient Greek philosophy, actually pagan religious thought. Greek philosopher Plato, for example, quotes Socrates as saying: “The soul,…if it departs pure, dragging with it nothing of the body,…goes away into that which is like itself, into the invisible, divine, immortal, and wise, and when it arrives there it is happy, freed from error and folly and fear…and all the other human ills, and .[bless and do not curse].[bless and do not curse]. lives in truth through all after time with the gods.”-Phaedo, 80, D, E; 81, A.

In direct contrast with the Greek teaching of the psy·khe′ (soul) as being immaterial, intangible, invisible, and immortal, the Scriptures show that both psy·khe′ and ne′phesh, as used with reference to earthly creatures, refer to that which is material, tangible, visible, and mortal.

 

[True Scotsman]

Countless times on here I've seen the term "soul" and "spirit" used almost interchangeably...and without any real explanation for what they mean. The clearest understanding I have, is that a soul is some part of you that exists apart from your physical self (as in, a supernatural part of a person).

Frankly, this sounds awful. Without eyes, ears, nerves, a tongue, a nose...and all the other rather nice physical bits of myself, I'd just be some thinking "essence" without any real sensory experience. Does this actually sound good to anyone? Would you want to exist as this? Am I way off here? If so...please correct my understanding...but before you do...consider please...

If a soul has access to all the sensory experiences we have and enjoy in our physical bodies, just what is the point of having a physical body? Wouldn't we all be better off as souls?

Just for reference, I don't believe in the soul, or spirit, but I'm curious how those who do reconcile this.

I don't really use the term "soul" but I do use the term "spirit" and to me this simply means the mind. I don't think the mind is something that is separate from the body but that we are an inseparable integration of matter and spirit.

 

[Hezekiah Holbrooke]

Countless times on here I've seen the term "soul" and "spirit" used almost interchangeably...and without any real explanation for what they mean. The clearest understanding I have, is that a soul is some part of you that exists apart from your physical self (as in, a supernatural part of a person).

Frankly, this sounds awful. Without eyes, ears, nerves, a tongue, a nose...and all the other rather nice physical bits of myself, I'd just be some thinking "essence" without any real sensory experience. Does this actually sound good to anyone? Would you want to exist as this? Am I way off here? If so...please correct my understanding...but before you do...consider please...

If a soul has access to all the sensory experiences we have and enjoy in our physical bodies, just what is the point of having a physical body? Wouldn't we all be better off as souls?

Just for reference, I don't believe in the soul, or spirit, but I'm curious how those who do reconcile this.

Simple. Those who reconcile this have read our Bibles.

Gen_2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Man doesn't have a soul. Man IS a soul. Even animals are souls.

Job_32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

Man has a spirit within him. This spirit was given to man by the breath of God. It is this spirit that returns to God upon one's death.

Ecc_12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Even Christ's spirit returned to god when He died on the cross:

Luk_23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

It is the Holy Spirit that quickens our own spirit and will allow for us to be resurrected in spirit bodies and become the sons of god:

Psa_71:20 Thou, which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, and shalt bring me up again from the depths of the earth.


So man is composed of a body made of dust and a spirit given of God and this combination of the two make man a living soul able to think and have emotions.