Place of imagination

[peregrinus2017]

In a recent thread, Someone said "Imagination is a parasite of Adams fall". I think I read something similar somewhere but cannot recall where.
The above quote seems to imply that imagination is something foreign to unfallen man. I am wondering what the Orthodox understanding of imagination is.
Some people equate imagination with daydreaming, some with creativity and making connections that others do not see. I have up to this point considered imagination as an aspect of the mind and how it processes sensory perception.
St. Isaac the Syrian describes the mind as the ruler of the senses. To me this makes perfect sense. In my own life most of the work I have done has depended on my ability to see patterns and connections that are not readily apparent, and tiny details most people don't notice. People tell me I have a very imaginative mind, but it is really just a lack of sensory filters and a brain trying to put it all together.
I can see the importance of keeping the mind (this ruler of the senses or sensory organ) in its proper place. It is not the core of who we are, it needs to be trained and led, not lead us. I'd better stop before I wander off. I may have a wrong understanding of what is meant by imagination, or even mind. Any Orthodox perspective would be appreciated.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I always heard that imagination was given to man to remember paradise, but that does mean that it is a consequence of the Fall.

 

[JohnTh]

In a recent thread, Someone said "Imagination is a parasite of Adams fall".

I don't know who, but in any case this is something which I say many times.

The above quote seems to imply that imagination is something foreign to unfallen man

Yes, sure. The knowledge which we have now comes from eating the tree of knowledge - an incremmental knowledge outside of God, if this thing can be possible anyway - a pseudo-knowledge. The true knowledge is entirely different: it is simple and immediate even if we can advance further in the perfection of this knowledge if we enlarge our vessel.

When you run on the stairs you just run. You just „know” how to do it. You don't imagine how to put the next step, how to maintain your equilibrium, how to avoid the people which are coming, how to go in front of the others which are walking slower etc.

However if you would try to make a robot to do all these things in real time - especially 3D shape recognition, collision detection and avoidance - you will see that it is a very hard task.

Because our fall wasn't (so much) in 3D orientation and navigation that's why there our mind is free of thoughts and imagination even if we know that any entity (alive or not) which would do such a feat has to make a lot of decisions / second and process real-time a lot of images (in fact a 3D moving space) which needs a lot of processing power.

So, the fact that we „think” and use our imagination („How should I do it?”) at something is actually a proof of our fallen state.

Of course, the abstract no-purpose imagination (daydreaming) is a gross misuse.

Besides that, imagination is THE portal through demons attack and the result of using imagination during prayer can have very nasty effects ranging from wandering of the mind till delusion.

St. Isaac the Syrian describes the mind as the ruler of the senses.

Definitely ...or to be more correct, mind SHOULD be the ruler of senses. What happens IRL is entire another story. The mind will be the ruler only in the cured soul.

In my own life most of the work I have done has depended on my ability to see patterns and connections that are not readily apparent, and tiny details most people don't notice

Designer? Artist?

Ok, but as you said, your mind should keep the control. What is much more important you will (TRY to) do this only when you will be „at work” that is when you on purpose you will use your synthetic capacity (which is different from imagination) in order to help the others on their road to the eternal personal perfection.

 

[Knee V]

I would say that the implications of the word "imagination" depend on the context. If I have a problem and need a solution, I can spend time thinking about it to create a new and better solution. In that sense, "imagination" is simply a function of being intelligent. On the other hand, we can waste a great deal of time mentally meddling in things that we know nothing - or very little - about, and bring ourselves to a bad place. I can accept what the Church teaches me about Christ and the nature of God, or I can spend time in my own head coming up with ideas that seem sensible to me, but which have nothing to do with what God has revealed, creating an idol from my thoughts, leading me away from the right worship of the true God. In that sense, "imagination" is quite evil.

 

[Not David]

Imagination can be pretty bad if you think of it as more real than reality itself.

 

[Knee V]

Imagination can be pretty bad if you think of it as more real than reality itself.

Many people live their whole lives that way.

 

[peregrinus2017]

Yes, sure. The knowledge which we have now comes from eating the tree of knowledge - an incremmental knowledge outside of God, if this thing can be possible anyway - a pseudo-knowledge. The true knowledge is entirely different: it is simple and immediate even if we can advance further in the perfection of this knowledge if we enlarge our vessel.

This sounds like what one might describe as divine revelation. As a personal example, one time when reading Psalms in the morning, a particular psalm was suddenly opened up in my heart in a way that was so wonderful and beautiful and scary. And it seemed so obvious that I wondered how I had never seen it before. I might describe this kind of knowledge as not having been darkened by our mind.

When you run on the stairs you just run. You just „know” how to do it. You don't imagine how to put the next step, how to maintain your equilibrium, how to avoid the people which are coming, how to go in front of the others which are walking slower etc.

However if you would try to make a robot to do all these things in real time - especially 3D shape recognition, collision detection and avoidance - you will see that it is a very hard task.

Because our fall wasn't (so much) in 3D orientation and navigation that's why there our mind is free of thoughts and imagination even if we know that any entity (alive or not) which would do such a feat has to make a lot of decisions / second and process real-time a lot of images (in fact a 3D moving space) which needs a lot of processing power.

At first I thought you were describing instinctual knowledge but I don't think that's what you mean. Walking, running, balance are all learned skills. At some point we didn't just know how to do them. The difference between a person and a robot is that the robot can only do what it is programmed to do (which fortunately means they won't be taking over the world unless we tell them to. )

So, the fact that we „think” and use our imagination („How should I do it?”) at something is actually a proof of our fallen state.

So what does it mean to be a rational creature (which I thought traditionally meant a thinking, reasoning creature), as opposed to an animal (considered as an instinctual creature)?
I took a while to ponder the quote above, please correct me if you think I am missing something. I take it to mean that it is not our ignorance (not knowing) that is proof of our fallen state, but our attempt to figure it out ourselves. (Which takes us right back to the garden.)

Designer? Artist?

A bit of both, among other things.

synthetic capacity (which is different from imagination)

I think you hit the mark here. I am misunderstanding what imagination is.

Definitely ...or to be more correct, mind SHOULD be the ruler of senses. What happens IRL is entire another story. The mind will be the ruler only in the cured soul.

Ok, but as you said, your mind should keep the control.

I didn't really understand it like this. I took it to mean that the mind is the sovereign of the place of the senses, or maybe better described as the overseer of the senses. Its job is to organise and process all the sensory input. The mind however is not very well equipped to properly judge those senses (particularly given its fallen condition, and it not really being in its job description). I see it as needing to keep the mind in its proper place rather than giving it control. In the same homily St. Isaac describes the heart as the treasurer of the thoughts. It is in the heart that we think and judge and assign value. I think I just need to quote this small section from St. Isaacs homily 23 on pure prayer:

"The movements of the tongue and the heart in prayer are keys; what comes after them, however, is the entrance into the treasury. Here let every mouth, every tongue become silent, and let the heart (the treasurer of the thoughts), and the mind (the ruler of the senses), and the reason (that swift winged and most shameless bird), and their every device be still. Here let those who seek tarry, for the Master of the house has come."

That is the place to be.

 

[AMM]

I didn't really understand it like this. I took it to mean that the mind is the sovereign of the place of the senses, or maybe better described as the overseer of the senses. Its job is to organise and process all the sensory input. The mind however is not very well equipped to properly judge those senses (particularly given its fallen condition, and it not really being in its job description). I see it as needing to keep the mind in its proper place rather than giving it control. In the same homily St. Isaac describes the heart as the treasurer of the thoughts. It is in the heart that we think and judge and assign value. I think I just need to quote this small section from St. Isaacs homily 23 on pure prayer:

"The movements of the tongue and the heart in prayer are keys; what comes after them, however, is the entrance into the treasury. Here let every mouth, every tongue become silent, and let the heart (the treasurer of the thoughts), and the mind (the ruler of the senses), and the reason (that swift winged and most shameless bird), and their every device be still. Here let those who seek tarry, for the Master of the house has come."

That is the place to be.

This isn't completely on topic, but it's kinda related. I just watched a talk from Fr Maximos Simonopetrides about distraction and having the mind be sovereign, and so on and your comment reminded me of it.

and I like that quote from St Isaac - makes me think of the hymn "Let all mortal flesh keep silence" (the Cherubic hymn from the liturgy of St James). Translation of the Greek text goes like this:

Let all mortal flesh keep silent, and stand with fear and trembling, and in itself consider nothing earthly; for the King of kings and Lord of lords cometh forth to be sacrificed, and given as food to the believers; and there go before Him the choirs of Angels, with every Dominion and Power, the many-eyed Cherubim and the six-winged Seraphim, covering their faces, and crying out the hymn: Alleluia, Alleluia, Alleluia.

But the hymn version is a bit longer:
Let all mortal flesh keep silence,
And with fear and trembling stand;
Ponder nothing earthly minded,
For with blessing in His hand,
Christ our God to earth descending
Comes our homage to demand.

King of kings, yet born of Mary,
As of old on earth He stood,
Lord of lords, in human vesture,
In the body and the blood;
He will give to all the faithful
His own self for heavenly food.

Rank on rank the host of heaven
Spreads its vanguard on the way,
As the Light of light descendeth
From the realms of endless day,
Comes the powers of hell to vanquish
As the darkness clears away.

At His feet the six winged seraph,
Cherubim with sleepless eye,
Veil their faces to the presence,
As with ceaseless voice they cry:
Alleluia, Alleluia
Alleluia, Lord Most High!

But regardless of the version, the emphasis on silence and stillness is important. "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One" is the command of the Shema; even that tells us to be silent, to be in silent awe in the presence of God.

 

[Not David]

I realize now that "Imagine" by John Lennon is diabolical.

 

[JohnTh]

This sounds like what one might describe as divine revelation. As a personal example, one time when reading Psalms in the morning, a particular psalm was suddenly opened up in my heart in a way that was so wonderful and beautiful and scary. And it seemed so obvious that I wondered how I had never seen it before. I might describe this kind of knowledge as not having been darkened by our mind.

Yes, sure. A divine revelation. However, if we say today such words without any context one would think that it was something big in a Hollywood-way of seeing things. We say divine revelation but also the humbler „God enlightened me”.

At first I thought you were describing instinctual knowledge but I don't think that's what you mean. Walking, running, balance are all learned skills. At some point we didn't just know how to do them.

Yes - but the main point is that the mind is free. The mind isn't occupied with these things. The mind is sovereign. We do not „think” like a baby or like a drunk man how to put our feet one after another on the next step on the stairs or conscientiously (over)analyze on which path we must run on the stairs. When we say such a behavior we say that (s)he is ...retarded - that is using imagination in such a simple case is sign of retardation. Because our normal state isn't this fallen state but to be God-like we are all ...retarded in any problem in which we imagine to find the way.

St. John of Damascus says that God is (super)intelligent but not rational because rationale behavior means the incremental behavior which starts from a sum of known notions called premises and after a series of steps reach to a result which isn't known yet: the conclusion (which in our case can be also wrong). Since God knows everything he doesn't need to be rational.

I took a while to ponder the quote above, please correct me if you think I am missing something. I take it to mean that it is not our ignorance (not knowing) that is proof of our fallen state, but our attempt to figure it out ourselves. (Which takes us right back to the garden.)

(emphasis mine)

Yes - the way in which we want to solve the problem. Did you eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Out from paradise. The Holy Fathers said that the greatest virtue is to have the knowledge of good and evil (discrimination). So, The Holy Fathers say that the greatest virtue is the one for which God kicked us out from paradise? God forbid! It is the way - Adam tried to do it ALONE - and the time.

I took it to mean that the mind is the sovereign of the place of the senses, or maybe better described as the overseer of the senses. Its job is to organise and process all the sensory input. The mind however is not very well equipped to properly judge those senses (particularly given its fallen condition, and it not really being in its job description). I see it as needing to keep the mind in its proper place rather than giving it control.

Yes - the mind is perfectly equipped to do this task just that our fall means that the senses and hence the aspects of our soul cannot be kept under control anymore. By keeping the mind in its proper place - free of distractions - is a big, big help in gaining control back. Besides that, it needs the help from Grace.

No comments about St. Isaac. St. Isaac is St. Isaac.

 

[Antoni]

St. Maximos, arguing against the monothelites who ascribed a single will to Christ:

“What is more impious than to say that with one and the same will the self same [Christ] before the Incarnation brought all things from non-existence to existence, constitutes, provides, and guides them continuously to salvation, but after becoming man He desired food and drink, went from place to place and did everything else which is beyond reproach and blameless, through which He revealed that the divine economia is clear of every imagination.”

The Fathers teach that having assumed the pre-lapsarian perfect human nature, Christ was free from imaginations and fantasies, which are aspects that belong to the fallen state. The same was true with Adam prior to his fall. Imaginations are a consequence of the fall, and now, like fire or a sharp blade, can be helpful or extremely harmful to one’s walk, thus requiring much caution and discernment.

Being transfigured and growing in the likeness of Christ means a lessening of fantasies and imaginations. From what I understand, in the Kingdom to come, when Christ restores and renews all things, there will be no imaginations or fantasies, no would there be any reason for such things.

 

[JohnTh]

The Fathers teach that having assumed the pre-lapsarian perfect human nature, Christ was free from imaginations and fantasies, which are aspects that belong to the fallen state. The same was true with Adam prior to his fall. Imaginations are a consequence of the fall, and now, like fire or a sharp blade, can be helpful or extremely harmful to one’s walk, thus requiring much caution and discernment.

Translated into English: crutch, prosthesis

 

[JohnTh]

“What is more impious than to say that with one and the same will the self same [Christ] before the Incarnation brought all things from non-existence to existence, constitutes, provides, and guides them continuously to salvation, but after becoming man He desired food and drink, went from place to place and did everything else which is beyond reproach and blameless, through which He revealed that the divine economia is clear of every imagination.”

Btw, do you have a link handy for St. Maximos?

 

[peregrinus2017]

Thank you for all the thoughtful responses. Every day I learn more and more how much I don't know or misunderstand.

 

[Antoni]

Btw, do you have a link handy for St. Maximos?

Hi JohnTh,

The quote is from “Disputations with Pyrrhus”. Unfortunately, I can’t seem to find an online pdf for free.