Pi

[Hespera]

AV sez... Originally Posted by Hespera

So the thing is 30 cubits around, correct to an infinite number of decimal places?
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Was Noah's Ark 300 cubits long?


Hespera sez... Great courage of convicitons! Change the subject with a question to answer a question!

But, hey, im not afraid to answer like some people, coz im not trapped like some people.

So the answer about noahs ark is, NO.

a) there never was such a thing, so any size is imaginary

b) if it had been built, it would not be built accurate to an infinite number of decimal places.

Now answer the question i asked above, in a forthright and honest way if, that is, you are not afraid to. if afraid, dont respond, I dont want to put a burden on you. But we will want to qv this, that when confronted with this, you were afraid to answer.

 

[Washington]

I totally disagree --- the passage is correct as it stands.

I said it before, and I'll say it again --- the diameter was 10 cubits --- as in 10.0000000000...

The circumference that is mentioned, 30 cubits, is also correct --- as in 30.0000000000...

Pi, which isn't even mention, is still 3.14159265358979323846...

What is confusing you guys is not Pi --- it's the thickness of the wall.

Not me.
"And it was an hand breadth thick" means it was 2 1/2 to 4 inches, or an average of 3 1/4 inches thick. Which, unfortunately, makes your contention of inside and outside measurements untenable. Yet you blithely continue to go on about how . . .

The diameter of one perimeter is ten cubits, while the circumference of the other perimeter is thirty cubits.

When such dimensions produce a wall nowhere close to a "hand breadth thick."

Sorry, but no matter how you cut it 2 + 2 simply cannot = 8.

I suggest that you simply ink out one of the two measurements given in Kings and pretend it never existed.

 

[ReverendDG]

Was Noah's Ark 300 cubits long?

according to the bible having no errors yes, the ark would have to be 300 cubits, not 299, not 301.
since being inerrant means its not wrong, and i would say god would be perfect and exact, being god and all. i'd think he would be able to over come human limitations, he has before, or is prophecy not something that takes a lot of effort?

 

[Thekla]

The value of Pi is now calculated to about a trillion digits, and is ongoing. I don't think it would be practicle to record the actual value of Pi in the Bible - or anywhere else. In fact, I don't think it would be reasonable to use the actual value of Pi in calculations, either (not to mention that the actual value is not yet known).

 

[Hespera]

THEKLA sez....The value of Pi is now calculated to about a trillion digits, and is ongoing. I don't think it would be practicle to record the actual value of Pi in the Bible - or anywhere else. In fact, I don't think it would be reasonable to use the actual value of Pi in calculations, either (not to mention that the actual value is not yet known).


Hespera sez...

Of course and absolutely. we all know that.

But do we all know that if you read the bible as being literally and exactly true, that when it says "30 cubits" it is saying something that could not be true?

You DO know that measuring to an infinite number of decimal places cant be done and sure as heck wasnt done then?

As for what is practical to record, why try to get it more exact than 30? Tells you it was one big water tank.

So... any problem with saying that yes, the bible is sometimes approximate, not exact?

 

[AV1611VET]

if the bible says pi is not 3.14 then the bible is in error, because it says 3.
isn't that what what inerrant means? without error? well the bible saying its not 3.14 is wrong.

The Bible doesn't mention Pi whatsoever.

Instead, It gives a perimeter as having a diameter of 10 cubits --- but It doesn't give the circumference.

Then, It gives a perimeter as having a circumference of 30 cubits --- but It doesn't give the diameter.

So there's nothing to compare it to.

To reduce that passage to a formula would look like this:

1. first perimeter: n-circumference / 10 cubits diameter = Pi
2. second perimeter: 30 cubits circumference / n-diameter = Pi
​

In both mutually-exclusive statements above, you can calculate the missing variable yourself.

 

[Washington]

The trouble with approximations in this case is that if 10 and 30 are approximations--- a rounding to the nearest fives place---then the diameter could range anywhere from 7.5 to 12.5 cubits, and the circumference from 27.5 to 32.5 cubits. And, if the approximation was to the nearest tenths place the range would be be 5 and 15 cubits across and 25 to 35 cubits around.

Think that after determining that the dimensions of the "sea" were important enough to mention that the writer of Kings would then not care if these dimensions were so imprecise? I don't, so it's obvious something is amiss here because to be accurate the Bible should have made the circumference 31 instead of 30. (I gave the reasoning for this in a thread I posted some time ago.)

10 and 30 simply don't work no matter how one juggles the issue.

 

[AV1611VET]

The trouble with approximations in this case is that if 10 and 30 are approximations--- a rounding to the nearest fives place---then the diameter could range anywhere from 7.5 to 12.5 cubits, and the circumference from 27.5 to 32.5 cubits.

Well, in this case, they aren't approximations.

They were told to build a "sea" with an inner circumference of 30 cubits, and an outer diameter of 10 cubits.

If I hired you to do that, could you?

 

[Hespera]

AV sez....The Bible doesn't mention Pi whatsoever.

Instead, It gives a perimeter as having a diameter of 10 cubits --- but It doesn't give the circumference.

Then, It gives a perimeter as having a circumference of 30 cubits --- but It doesn't give the diameter.

So there's nothing to compare it to.QUOTE////////////////

Hespera sez...

Nothing to compare to but reality / impossibility, and the courage of conviction, to speak forthrightly.

 

[ReverendDG]

The Bible doesn't mention Pi whatsoever.

dude it doesn't have to have to have a verse about pi AV, to mean they are detailing something that deals with pi, you measure ratios in circles using pi

Instead, It gives a perimeter as having a diameter of 10 cubits --- but It doesn't give the circumference.

Then, It gives a perimeter as having a circumference of 30 cubits --- but It doesn't give the diameter.

yes it does, it says the cast sea was 30 by 10, which divided is 3.
you are just trying to twist it because the kjv has hard to understand language
nab says:The sea was then cast; it was made with a circular rim, and measured ten cubits across, five in height, and thirty in circumference.

So there's nothing to compare it to.

To reduce that passage to a formula would look like this:

1. first perimeter: n-circumference / 10 cubits diameter = Pi
2. second perimeter: 30 cubits circumference / n-diameter = Pi
​

In both mutually-exclusive statements above, you can calculate the missing variable yourself.

And of course you miss the point. the first number is the diameter, the second is the perimeter, one is 10 the other is 30, whats so hard about this for you?
oh yeah the kjv is hard to understand.
23And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.
you are trying to imply there are two brims? there isn't there's only one, its 10 cubits across, you don't count the thickness of the object when you measure something.
do you understand this? when measuring a diameter you don't count the thickness of the object.
the second part is its perimeter is 30 cubits. oh and 5 cubits high.

its still wrong about pi and it makes the claim the bible is inerrant wrong
this just seems like you being overly stubborn because the kjv translates the passage poorly

 

[AV1611VET]

its still wrong about pi and it makes the claim the bible is inerrant wrong
this just seems like you being overly stubborn because the kjv translates the passage poorly

I'll ask you the same question (modified):

If I asked you to build me a circular swimming pool that had an inner circumference of 30 cubits, and an outer diameter of 10 cubits --- could you do it?

 

[ReverendDG]

Well, in this case, they aren't approximations.

They were told to build a "sea" with an inner circumference of 30 cubits, and an outer diameter of 10 cubits.

If I hired you to do that, could you?

no because a diameter is a measurement across a circle, its circumference is the circle
its 10 cubits in diameter and 30 in circumference
so what you are saying is wrong.

23And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other - 10 cubit diameter.

line of thirty cubits did compass it round about. - circumference of 30 cubits.
seriously go look up the terms, it really doesn't help you don't know what you are talking about.

 

[ReverendDG]

I'll ask you the same question (modified):

If I asked you to build me a circular swimming pool that had an inner circumference of 30 cubits, and an outer diameter of 10 cubits --- could you do it?

i'd tell you that you are clueless as to how to measure a circle and need to go look up what the words mean then tell you no because circles need to be round to be circles.

 

[Washington]

Well, in this case, they aren't approximations.

They were told to build a "sea" with an inner circumference of 30 cubits, and an outer diameter of 10 cubits.

If I hired you to do that, could you?

Not with a thickness of a hand breadth. Neither could you or anyone else. So what's your point? Oh, I know! A hand breadth back then didn't mean what a hand breadth meant when the KJ Bible was written. Give us a break. Bad tap dancing like this went out with vaudeville.

Besides, the notion that the two dimensions referred to different configurations of the vessel is only slightly less amusing---but it's been an interesting exercise none the less. If it just wasn't for that dang "hand breadth" thing that messes up your arithmetic here.

 

[AV1611VET]

Not with a thickness of a hand breadth.

'Yes' or 'no', please.

 

[Washington]

'Yes' or 'no', please.

Hey, if you expect me to play by the rules then all the limiting factors have to be included. You know what they are and you know I know what they are, so do with my answer what you will. However, by your response here you've just confirmed my conclusion that you know you're stuck in a corner of a true Bible contradiction, which tells us all that not all the given measurements can be correct. The Bible is in error.
2+2≠8 no matter who says they do!

 

[ReverendDG]

Not with a thickness of a hand breadth. Neither could you or anyone else. So what's your point? Oh, I know! A hand breadth back then didn't mean what a hand breadth meant when the KJ Bible was written. Give us a break. Bad tap dancing like this went out with vaudeville.

Besides, the notion that the two dimensions referred to different configurations of the vessel is only slightly less amusing---but it's been an interesting exercise none the less. If it just wasn't for that dang "hand breadth" thing that messes up your arithmetic here.

apparently AV can't read elizibethen english
by the way, the "hands breath" thing is wrong, you wouldn't measure the sides, only the mouth of the cup and the top of it, at least that would be how people back then would do it.
the text leaves little doubt to it.
ten cubits from the one brim to the other- one side to the other, though other translations are better.

 

[Gracchus]

Was Noah's Ark 300 cubits long?

It could have been 300 cubits long if your head was at least 300 cubits in diameter, because Noah's Ark exists only in your head.

(Note to the mods: I am not trying to imply that AV1611VET has a swelled head.)

 

[Hespera]

AV sez...
Originally Posted by AV1611VET

I'll ask you the same question (modified):

If I asked you to build me a circular swimming pool that had an inner circumference of 30 cubits, and an outer diameter of 10 cubits --- could you do it?QUOTE///////////


Hespera sez.... nobody on earth could do it if you wanted this built to an accuracy of 30.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 etc to infinity digits.

did you think anyone could?

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[AV1611VET]

AV sez...
Originally Posted by AV1611VET

I'll ask you the same question (modified):

If I asked you to build me a circular swimming pool that had an inner circumference of 30 cubits, and an outer diameter of 10 cubits --- could you do it?QUOTE///////////


Hespera sez.... nobody on earth could do it if you wanted this built to an accuracy of 30.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 etc to infinity digits.

did you think anyone could?

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Not twice in a row.