Physics and the Immortality of the Soul

[Michael]

Oh so by your argument Hitler should not be blamed for the millions of people murdered in WW2 because Hitler did not personally kill anyone. GOTCHA!

Had I given Moses a free pass for violating the commandment ("Do not kill"), you might have a valid point. Had the commandments read "Kill when you think it's necessary", you might also have a valid point. Since I'm not doing any such thing, your strawman makes no sense.

 

[Illuminaughty]

The Bible portrays God ordering the massacres. If those Biblical assertions are false wouldn't it also throw doubt on the divine inspiration of the other orders and commandments you find in the book? We could even say the opposite that God ordered the massacres but the "thou shall not kill" part was a human interpolation.

 

[mzungu]

Had I given Moses a free pass for violating the commandment ("Do not kill"), you might have a valid point. Had the commandments read "Kill when you think it's necessary", you might also have a valid point. Since I'm not doing any such thing, your strawman makes no sense.

What is it about the following verse that you do not understand: “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)

Not heaven nor Earth have passed away and thus we are committed to the OT!

 

[Michael]

What is it about the following verse that you do not understand: “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)

Not heaven nor Earth have passed away and thus we are committed to the OT!

No. Christ is describing the LAWS (commandments) recorded in the Bible/Torah, not the MORALITY OF MOSES! In fact Jesus REBUKES Moses's eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth sense of morality. Jesus insists that we are to love even our worst enemies! We're supposed to turn the other cheek, not hit them back as Moses would have done.

You're ignoring the fact that Christ is the JEWISH MESSIAH, not a mere "prophet"! The Messiah is there to FULFILL those laws/commandments IN FORM! Christ did not kill. Christ did not covet. Christ FOLLOWED THE LAWS and commandments that Moses wrote about whereas Moses did not! We aren't stuck with the OT, we also have a MESSIAH and a NT!

 

[Michael]

The Bible portrays God ordering the massacres.

Lot's and lots of human beings have KILLED and claimed God told them to do so IN SPITE of that commandment 'Do not kill'. I don't believe them anymore than you do.

If those Biblical assertions are false wouldn't it also throw doubt on the divine inspiration of the other orders and commandments you find in the book?

It certainly casts doubt on Moses since he didn't follow them. Since we're all human it doesn't make a lot of sense to blame God for obvious human failures. Moses wrote "Do not kill" which is entirely congruent with the teachings of Jesus. Why then did he kill other human beings anyway?

We could even say the opposite that God ordered the massacres but the "thou shall not kill" part was a human interpolation.

You could say that if you wanted to, but that is NOT congruent with my personal experience of God, nor most human experiences of God. My experiences of God are congruent with 'Do not kill" and "love your enemy'. They are not congruent with committing genocide.

 

[mzungu]

No. Christ is describing the LAWS (commandments) recorded in the Bible/Torah, not the MORALITY OF MOSES! In fact Jesus REBUKES Moses's eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth sense of morality. Jesus insists that we are to love even our worst enemies! We're supposed to turn the other cheek, not hit them back as Moses would have done.

You're ignoring the fact that Christ is the JEWISH MESSIAH, not a mere "prophet"! The Messiah is there to FULFILL those laws/commandments IN FORM! Christ did not kill. Christ did not covet. Christ FOLLOWED THE LAWS and commandments that Moses wrote about whereas Moses did not! We aren't stuck with the OT, we also have a MESSIAH and a NT!

This is obviously not referring to the 10 commandments as the 10 commandments were God's and not of any prophet's. Clearly Jesus is insisting we keep to the OT in its entirety and this includes killing disobedient children!
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfil. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

 

[Michael]

This is obviously not referring to the 10 commandments as the 10 commandments were God's and not of any prophet's.

Um. That's God's LAW that he's referring to! Facepalm!

Clearly Jesus is insisting we keep to the OT in its entirety and this includes killing disobedient children!

No it does NOT. Talk about strawman arguments. When did Jesus kill ANYONE that disobeyed him? What a crock! I've heard LAME arguments and I've seen people try to twist a single sentence out of context before, but WOW!

If you were correct then he would have allowed the adulteress to be stoned to death! He'd have said, "Hey man, Moses was a righteous dude and killing is sometimes justified. Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, that's what I say!"

Unfortunately for you, no such nonsense is recorded in the *NEW* Testament.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets.

I have come not to abolish but to fulfil. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place."

(Matthew 5:17 NAB)

As I've pointed out to you, the Messiah did in fact fulfill those laws in human form. He taught us to reject the human desire for revenge, and embrace unconditional love. Your portrayal and your understanding of Jesus and his teachings is just pitiful IMO.

 

[mkatzwork]

Lot's and lots of human beings have KILLED and claimed God told them to do so IN SPITE of that commandment 'Do not kill'. I don't believe them anymore than you do.

So when Joshua says God ordered him to kill every man woman and CHILD in Canaan, was it God that ordered it or not? The Bible is pretty clear who ordered it, and if this is indeed the Word of God, if he didn't order it and Joshua was hallucinating or deluded, then some kind of disclaimer might have been a good idea....

 

[mkatzwork]

I'd say more like - luckily for you.
He didn't say Jesus killed anybody and nobody says that. The point is that he fully endorsed the legal system that demands that killing. It doesn't matter whether he carried out the punishment, he endorsed the system as being moral when it quite clearly isn't.

Um. That's God's LAW that he's referring to! Facepalm!

No it does NOT. Talk about strawman arguments. When did Jesus kill ANYONE that disobeyed him? What a crock! I've heard LAME arguments and I've seen people try to twist a single sentence out of context before, but WOW!

If you were correct then he would have allowed the adulteress to be stoned to death! He'd have said, "Hey man, Moses was a righteous dude and killing is sometimes justified. Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, that's what I say!"

Unfortunately for you, no such nonsense is recorded in the *NEW* Testament.

As I've pointed out to you, the Messiah did in fact fulfill those laws in human form. He taught us to reject the human desire for revenge, and embrace unconditional love. Your portrayal and your understanding of Jesus and his teachings is just pitiful IMO.

 

[mzungu]

I'd say more like - luckily for you.
He didn't say Jesus killed anybody and nobody says that. The point is that he fully endorsed the legal system that demands that killing. It doesn't matter whether he carried out the punishment, he endorsed the system as being moral when it quite clearly isn't.

Exactly. Besides, since Jesus is considered to be God and the OT is written or inspired by God then suffice it to say that Jesus ordered the killings. Somehow the inconsistencies are too many to ignore. If the Soul hypothesis is to hold water then the Bible must hold water otherwise let us see the bible for what it is; A spiritual guide, and not a textbook. This will automatically mean that the soul is also relegated to the spiritual world and not the physical world of reality. This way we will have achieved an "immortal" balance. (pun intended)

 

[Greg1234]

Exactly. Besides, since Jesus is considered to be God and the OT is written or inspired by God then suffice it to say that Jesus ordered the killings. Somehow the inconsistencies are too many to ignore. If the Soul hypothesis is to hold water then the Bible must hold water otherwise let us see the bible for what it is; A spiritual guide, and not a textbook. This will automatically mean that the soul is also relegated to the spiritual world and not the physical world of reality. This way we will have achieved an "immortal" balance. (pun intended)

As you can clearly see by your actions, the soul is not absent from the physical.

A spiritual guide would use the laws of the spirit.

I'd say more like - luckily for you.
He didn't say Jesus killed anybody and nobody says that. The point is that he fully endorsed the legal system that demands that killing. It doesn't matter whether he carried out the punishment, he endorsed the system as being moral when it quite clearly isn't.

The fact that one who tries to save their own life will lose it is not immoral.

 

[Michael]

I'd say more like - luckily for you.
He didn't say Jesus killed anybody and nobody says that.

Then your point is moot because he had PLENTY of opportunity to implement Mosiac methods of punishment for fornication, disobedience, blasphemy, etc.

The point is that he fully endorsed the legal system that demands that killing.

BS. He did not! When the adulteress is brought before Jesus does he have her stoned to death? Does he do it himself?

It doesn't matter whether he carried out the punishment, he endorsed the system as being moral when it quite clearly isn't.

Your claim of endorsement is demonstrably false since Christ's sense of morality was NOTHING like that of Moses. Christ did NOT condone, nor engage in physical violence against anyone. He preached AGAINST Moses's revenge oriented "eye for an eye" mentality and taught us to love our enemies. Did Moses love his enemies?

This whole claim of endorsement of the entire Jewish Torah is complete BS. I've see lame arguments before but taking ONE SENTENCE, twisting it completely out of context, and ignoring the rest of Christ's teachings is just ridiculous. Loving your enemies has nothing to do with genocide. Do not kill means do not kill. Talk out intellectually dishonest behaviors.

 

[Michael]

Exactly.

Exactly WRONG!

Besides, since Jesus is considered to be God and the OT is written or inspired by God

You mean he's the one that commanded us to "Do not kill"?

then suffice it to say that Jesus ordered the killings.

No, that doesn't suffice. If God tells us "Do not kill" and do not steal and we kill and steal anyway, how exactly is that God's fault?

Somehow the inconsistencies are too many to ignore.

The only inconsistency is the fact that the two of you are utterly ignoring Christ's actual teachings while in the flesh. How is "love your enemy" congruent and consistent with genocide exactly? When did "Do not steal" and "Do not kill" jive with genocide over land?

If the Soul hypothesis is to hold water then the Bible must hold water otherwise let us see the bible for what it is; A spiritual guide, and not a textbook.

Even that claim is dubious and erroneous at the level of physics. Every religion in the world could have flaws and problem and yet soul could still exist. You folks just make up stuff up as you go.

 

[mzungu]

The only inconsistency is the fact that the two of you are utterly ignoring Christ's actual teachings while in the flesh. How is "love your enemy" congruent and consistent with genocide exactly? When did "Do not steal" and "Do not kill" jive with genocide over land?

Far from it. There is much in what Jesus said that I totally agree with. However since after the trinity was invented and Jesus became God then suffice it to say that since the OT is Gods word then it applies. As for contradictions in the Bible? Well here are some:

1. God is satisfied with his works
Gen 1:31
God is dissatisfied with his works.
Gen 6:6
2. God dwells in chosen temples
2 Chron 7:12,16
God dwells not in temples
Acts 7:48
3. God dwells in light
Tim 6:16
God dwells in darkness
1 Kings 8:12/ Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2
4. God is seen and heard
Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
Ex 24:9-11
God is invisible and cannot be heard
John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16
5. God is tired and rests
Ex 31:17
God is never tired and never rests
Is 40:28
6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things
Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all
things
Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8
7. God knows the hearts of men
Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3
God tries men to find out what is in their heart
Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12
8. God is all powerful
Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
God is not all powerful
Judg 1:19
9. God is unchangeable
James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19
God is changeable
Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/
Ex 33:1,3,17,14
10. God is just and impartial
Ps 92:15/ Gen 18:25/ Deut 32:4/ Rom 2:11/ Ezek 18:25
God is unjust and partial
Gen 9:25/ Ex 20:5/ Rom 9:11-13/ Matt 13:12
11. God is the author of evil
Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25
God is not the author of evil
1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13
12. God gives freely to those who ask
James 1:5/ Luke 11:10
God withholds his blessings and prevents men from receiving
them
John 12:40/ Josh 11:20/ Is 63:17
13. God is to be found by those who seek him
Matt 7:8/ Prov 8:17
God is not to be found by those who seek him
Prov 1:28
14. God is warlike
Ex 15:3/ Is 51:15
God is peaceful
Rom 15:33/ 1 Cor 14:33
15. God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious
Jer 13:14/ Deut 7:16/ 1 Sam 15:2,3/ 1 Sam 6:19
God is kind, merciful, and good
James 5:11/ Lam 3:33/ 1 Chron 16:34/ Ezek 18:32/ Ps 145:9/
1 Tim 2:4/ 1 John 4:16/ Ps 25:8
16. God's anger is fierce and endures long
Num 32:13/ Num 25:4/ Jer 17:4
God's anger is slow and endures but for a minute
Ps 103:8/ Ps 30:5
17. God commands, approves of, and delights in burnt offerings,
sacrifices ,and holy days
Ex 29:36/ Lev 23:27/ Ex 29:18/ Lev 1:9
God disapproves of and has no pleasure in burnt offerings,
sacrifices, and holy days.
Jer 7:22/ Jer 6:20/ Ps 50:13,4/ Is 1:13,11,12
18. God accepts human sacrifices
2 Sam 21:8,9,14/ Gen 22:2/ Judg 11:30-32,34,38,39
God forbids human sacrifice
Deut 12:30,31
19. God tempts men
Gen 22:1/ 2 Sam 24:1/ Jer 20:7/ Matt 6:13
God tempts no man
James 1:13
20. God cannot lie
Heb 6:18
God lies by proxy; he sends forth lying spirits t deceive
2 Thes 2:11/ 1 Kings 22:23/ Ezek 14:9
21. Because of man's wickedness God destroys him
Gen 6:5,7
Because of man's wickedness God will not destroy him
Gen 8:21
22. God's attributes are revealed in his works.
Rom 1:20
God's attributes cannot be discovered
Job 11:7/ Is 40:28
23. There is but one God
Deut 6:4
There is a plurality of gods
Gen 1:26/ Gen 3:22/ Gen 18:1-3/ 1 John 5:7

 

[Michael]

Far from it. There is much in what Jesus said that I totally agree with.

Then show him some respect and quit PRETENDING you can't see a clear difference between the sense of morality that Christ promoted and the genocide that Moses engaged himself in.

However since after the trinity was invented

Now you're talking "dogma"? Really? I'm talking HUMAN MORALITY and what a HUMAN named Jesus TAUGHT and LIVED vs. a Moses style "slaughter whole cities, we're taking their land" sense of morality. If you can't see a HUMAN DIFFERENCE between loving your enemy, and slaughtering their children, then you and I have nothing to discuss because you aren't interested in an honest discussion.

and Jesus became God

So you're going to blame God now for all the ills of planet Earth I suppose?

then suffice it to say that since the OT is Gods word

No, it's JUST a BOOK! It's a historical account of JEWISH history and JEWISH tradition written by JEWS. Some of it is 'accurate'. Some of it is "culturally biased". Some of it is pure BS. It's simply a BOOK.

Jesus Christ is the LIVING WORD of God. Nothing else is "perfect", PURE, or "God's fault". Jesus is the living word of God. Nothing else is worthy of any sort of idol worship.

As for contradictions in the Bible?

Who cares?

 

[Guy1]

Then show him some respect and quit PRETENDING you can't see a clear difference between the sense of morality that Christ promoted and the genocide that Moses engaged himself in.



Now you're talking "dogma"? Really? I'm talking HUMAN MORALITY and what a HUMAN named Jesus TAUGHT and LIVED vs. a Moses style "slaughter whole cities, we're taking their land" sense of morality. If you can't see a HUMAN DIFFERENCE between loving your enemy, and slaughtering their children, then you and I have nothing to discuss because you aren't interested in an honest discussion.



So you're going to blame God now for all the ills of planet Earth I suppose?



No, it's JUST a BOOK! It's a historical account of JEWISH history and JEWISH tradition written by JEWS. Some of it is 'accurate'. Some of it is "culturally biased". Some of it is pure BS. It's simply a BOOK.

Jesus Christ is the LIVING WORD of God. Nothing else is "perfect", PURE, or "God's fault". Jesus is the living word of God. Nothing else is worthy of any sort of idol worship.



Who cares?

This is the wrong thread and forum for this kind of talk. Take it somewhere else.

 

[mzungu]

No, it's JUST a BOOK! It's a historical account of JEWISH history and JEWISH tradition written by JEWS. Some of it is 'accurate'. Some of it is "culturally biased". Some of it is pure BS. It's simply a BOOK.

Jesus Christ is the LIVING WORD of God. Nothing else is "perfect", PURE, or "God's fault". Jesus is the living word of God. Nothing else is worthy of any sort of idol worship.



Who cares?

Since you are NOT a Bible literal then we are in agreement!

 

[Michael]

Since you are NOT a Bible literal then we are in agreement!

Okey Dokey.

 

[Michael]

So what physical proof do you have for a soul?

The Lancet: Near-death experience in survivors of cardiac arrest

Until you provide some evidence for a soul and a mechanism for it surviving death, I'll stick with the smart physics guys and gals.

Woah. Why do you need to have a "mechanism" to survive death? Do you have a "mechanism" to explain where 'dark energy" comes from? "Inflation"?

FYI, I felt a little guilty for derailing the thread a bit and this was my attempt to put it back on track.

There are actually many theoretical particles associated with QM and QM concepts of gravity ect. Would such theoretical particles suffice as a 'mechanism'?

 

[Non sequitur]

The Lancet: Near-death experience in survivors of cardiac arrest

This doesn't speak of a "soul" or "proof of a soul"; the words "soul" and "proof" are not even found.

So, people "almost die" (Near Death) and have an "experience". Should be expected.

Now if people died (a total necrosis of the cerebral neurons, say for 48 hours), then came back to life and talking of stuff, that would be interesting.