Physics and the Immortality of the Soul

[Jro]

Love indeed.

I'm so glad that Ronald takes the time to preach at us.

I've always favored "Be excellent to each other."

 

[CaliforniaSun]

I've always favored "Be excellent to each other."

Wyld Stallyns #1 : Be Excellent To Each Other - YouTube

 

[Ronald]

Love indeed.

I'm so glad that Ronald takes the time to preach at us.

Isn't that why you are drawn to this forum, for a Christian perspective? Or is it just to mock and argue against it?

 

[Davian]

Isn't that why you are drawn to this forum, for a Christian perspective? Or is it just to mock and argue against it?

No, I come here to learn about theists and how they relate to science. This isn't the Exploring Christianity forum.

Do you think your preaching of your religion in the Physical & Life Sciences forum is appropriate?

 

[AV1611VET]

Do you think your preaching of your religion in the Physical & Life Sciences forum is appropriate?

Are we allowed to answer questions put to us, or defend our faith? or should we just sit idly by and let you guys steamroll over things we hold sacred with your clipboards?

 

[Davian]

Are we allowed to answer questions put to us, or defend our faith? or should we just sit idly by and let you guys steamroll over things we hold sacred with your clipboards?

That did not address the question, which was phrased specifically for Ronald. Do you speak for him?

 

[CaliforniaSun]

Are we allowed to answer questions put to us, or defend our faith? or should we just sit idly by and let you guys steamroll over things we hold sacred with your clipboards?

Meh, not so concerned with your feelings as much as I am with facts and reality.

 

[AV1611VET]

Meh, not so concerned with your feelings as much as I am with facts and reality.

I take it you're on top of the knowledge tree, then? or does your concern end when you log off?

 

[Greg1234]

So getting back a bit closer to the topic, mind is not brain. It remains that you can enslave consciousness to algorithmic patterns, but the basis of consciousness is not found in the aggregated whole. Everytime we break down the body (organ to cell to molecule, etc) we find that mind was already present. Scriptures confirm the distinction.

 

[CaliforniaSun]

So getting back a bit closer to the topic, mind is not brain. It remains that you can enslave consciousness to algorithmic patterns, but the basis of consciousness is not found in the aggregated whole. Everytime we break down the body (organ to cell to molecule, etc) we find that mind was already present. Scriptures confirm the distinction.

Mind is just a word to describe what the brain does.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Isn't that why you are drawn to this forum, for a Christian perspective? Or is it just to mock and argue against it?

Being preached at is different to having a discussion with.

 

[Michael]

How can you reconcile the above with this especially when Jesus tells us to strictly adhere to the scriptures :

When did he tell us that? Quite the opposite is true actually. In Matthew 5 he specifically states 'You have heard an eye for an eye.....but I say love your enemy...turn the other cheek.....be perfect as your Father is perfect." The "eye for an eye" reference is a direct quote from the lips of Moses, the primary recognized "prophet" of Judaism in the OT. Jesus specifically CONTRADICTS Moses. The "Messiah" of "Judaism" was there to "set right" what was NOT PROPERLY understood in Judaism (the OT), or at least not properly APPLIED. Moses wrote "Do not kill", yet Moses personally killed or ordered the death of many humans, even Jews. Compare and contrast that with the behaviors of Jesus while in the flesh. He DIED, and sacrificed his OWN life for his beliefs, but he never KILLED for them.

The NT represents the CHANGE from Judaism to CHRISTIANITY.

 

[Non sequitur]

So getting back a bit closer to the topic, mind is not brain. It remains that you can enslave consciousness to algorithmic patterns, but the basis of consciousness is not found in the aggregated whole. Everytime we break down the body (organ to cell to molecule, etc) we find that mind was already present. Scriptures confirm the distinction.

"Obviously, this sports car was meant for me. I had a dream about it, too. Odd, huh?"

Sounds like Deepak, pattern building and pattern recognition, and confirmation bias...


Two interesting things I found, when I went down the rabbit hole of links provided by (the) authors:

- "...whereby the human consciousness possibly exists because it is made up of conscious particles"

- The researchers hint that perhaps an inorganic form of life emerged on the primordial earth, which then acted as the template for the more familiar organic molecules we know today.

 

[CaliforniaSun]

The NT represents the CHANGE from Judaism to CHRISTIANITY.

I thought your god is unchanging?

 

[mzungu]

When did he tell us that? Quite the opposite is true actually. In Matthew 5 he specifically states 'You have heard an eye for an eye.....but I say love your enemy...turn the other cheek.....be perfect as your Father is perfect." The "eye for an eye" reference is a direct quote from the lips of Moses, the primary recognized "prophet" of Judaism in the OT. Jesus specifically CONTRADICTS Moses. The "Messiah" of "Judaism" was there to "set right" what was NOT PROPERLY understood in Judaism (the OT), or at least not properly APPLIED. Moses wrote "Do not kill", yet Moses personally killed or ordered the death of many humans, even Jews. Compare and contrast that with the behaviors of Jesus while in the flesh. He DIED, and sacrificed his OWN life for his beliefs, but he never KILLED for them.

The NT represents the CHANGE from Judaism to CHRISTIANITY.

Here:

1) “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself.

2) All of the Old Testament laws will be binding forever. "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)
3) Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the the Old Testament. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfil. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)
3b) "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)
3c) "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)
4) Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark.7:9-13 "Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10 NAB)
5) Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4-7)
6) Jesus has a punishment even worse than his father concerning adultery: God said the act of adultery was punishable by death. Jesus says looking with lust is the same thing and you should gouge your eye out, better a part, than the whole. The punishment under Jesus is an eternity in Hell. (Matthew 5:27)
7) Peter says that all slaves should “be subject to [their] masters with all fear,” to the bad and cruel as well as the “good and gentle.” This is merely an echo of the same slavery commands in the Old Testament. 1 Peter 2:18
8) “Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19) and “For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17).
9) “...the scripture cannot be broken.” --Jesus Christ, John 10:35

 

[Davian]

So getting back a bit closer to the topic, mind is not brain. It remains that you can enslave consciousness to algorithmic patterns, but the basis of consciousness is not found in the aggregated whole.

Do you think consciousness is a thing or a process? As a process, what you are saying makes no sense.

Everytime we break down the body (organ to cell to molecule, etc) we find that mind was already present. Scriptures confirm the distinction.

Just not in any way that you can demonstrate.

 

[Michael]

Here:

1) “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself.

Do the commandments of the OT teach us "Do not kill"? Did Jesus kill anyone?

 

[CaliforniaSun]

Do the commandments of the OT teach us "Do not kill"? Did Jesus kill anyone?

It's possible, I suppose, since virtually nothing of his life is known before age thirty.

 

[Michael]

Here:

1) “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself.

FYI, this particular quote is "useful" IMO because it comes from the lips of Jesus himself. That's not really the case with most of your references.

2) All of the Old Testament laws will be binding forever. "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

Again, but it seems to point to the (now) 10 commandments, not necessarily everything written in the OT.

3) Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets.

I'd say it is fair to claim that Jesus approved of the 10 commandments (the laws). I'd say his actions on Earth and his speeches about "Love your enemy" were entirely congruent with those commandments, including "Do not kill". Moses however spent a fair amount of time violating those very same laws and commandments. Moses certainly did NOT abide by those laws, nor did he abide by the moral concept of 'love your enemy'.

He hasn’t the slightest objection to the the Old Testament.

Boloney he didn't.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfil.

He didn't come to abolish the commandments, nor could he "abolish" Moses as a prophet of Judaism. He came to fulfill the role of the Jewish "Messiah" and fully EXPLAIN those laws. Christ's actions and deeds and words were entirely congruent with those laws.

That is NOT the case with Moses. The whole reason that Jesus has to say such things in the first place is because he rather blatantly CONTRADICTS Moses's revenge based "eye for an eye" sense of "morality" and instead he's preaching/espousing a morality based upon FORGIVENESS. You can't simply ignore the fact that the actions and deeds of Jesus as the Messiah are congruent with those commandments he's talking about, whereas the actions and words of Moses the Prophet were not! Judaism had it's share of "prophets" but it only had one 'Messiah' and only one person fulfilled that role.

Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place."

(Matthew 5:17 NAB)

Again, you're talking about a references to "laws' like "do not kill".

 

[Non sequitur]

Do the commandments of the OT teach us "Do not kill"? Did Jesus kill anyone?

I think two people in The Gospel of Thomas.

But it doesn't matter, really. Either it "isn't true" or "it is justified".