Physics and the Immortality of the Soul

[sandwiches]

Nope:
Rupert Sheldrake - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Field models of soul have been around for awhile now.

How does this model relate to reality? What are these morphic units and how can they be measured or observed? What kind of energy are these morphic fields? How is data input, stored, altered, transmitted, and used in these fields? How can we measure or detect these fields?

 

[Michael]

(and incidentally, that still doesn't leap into any kind of supernatural realm - and doesn't support in any way the idea that we could have any kind of mental faculty not arising from brain activity)

No, but plenty of works do. My original intent of mentioning Penrose (I can't believe I posted the wrong link) was to demonstrate that even some relatively famous atheists have some interest in a quantum explanation of awareness. There are whole books devoted to taking that concept and applying it to the concept of 'soul'.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Quantum-Physics-Soul-Spirit/dp/1561708259
Amazon.com: Quantum Physics, Near Death Experiences, Eternal Consciousness, Religion, and the Human Soul eBook: william bray: Kindle Store

 

[mkatzwork]

Ah, it happens.

I googled the author of that book and cannot find a single thing about him, published papers or anything to back up his claimed credentials other than his own website. I cannot find where he studied, what his degrees are and from what accredited university...nothing. He says he served as a consultant to the CIA, the DHS, the TSA...hmmmm......

Not saying that he isn't who he says he is, but...smells super fishy.

No, but plenty of works do. My original intent of mentioning Penrose (I can't believe I posted the wrong link) was to demonstrate that even some relatively famous atheists have some interest in a quantum explanation of awareness. There are whole books devoted to taking that concept and applying it to the concept of 'soul'.

Amazon.com: The Quantum Physics of Soul and Spirit (9781561708253): Deepak Chopra, Amit Goswami: Books
Amazon.com: Quantum Physics, Near Death Experiences, Eternal Consciousness, Religion, and the Human Soul eBook: william bray: Kindle Store

 

[createdtoworship]

FYI, whereas soul is indeed eternal, "gehenna" was never associated with eternal torment in Judaism or early Christianity. The concept of "eternal torment" was a PAGAN (from Greek mythology) concept related to 'hades'. It has NOTHING to do with the 'hell' that Origen describes in Early Christianity, and it has NOTHING to do with the concept of Gehenna in Judaism. Both Origen and Judaism describe "hell" as a temporal place of "soul cleansing", not a place of perpetual torment. Hell is not "eternal" according to Origen, it simply serves a purpose, specifically the purpose of soul cleansing. That is entirely consistent with the concept of 'gehenna' that the Jewish Messiah described to a JEWISH audience.

thats funny you say that because there is a link to another thread on Hell topic where I post many quotes from early church on Hell (visit it if you want)

http://www.christianforums.com/t7648154-41/#post60526941

 

[createdtoworship]

The information sent over a phone line is either in electrons or photons. Both use the binary system and the noughts and ones are translated into meaningful code. The information is thus carried by electrons or photons but by themselves are useless. Now unless you can answer my question then I shall regard this debate as meaningless make believe rubbish!

I doubt wireless communication uses electrons and photons. A cell phone is a hi-tec radio (like a radio CB=simplex), digital cell phones transmit a signal that is converted to voltage (like 1,and 0), an analog phone uses RFsignal.

"a cell phone is a duplex device, so it uses one frequency for talking and a second, separate frequency for listening...A cell phone can communicate on 1,664 channels. Cell phones also operate within cells and they can switch cells as they move around. Cells give cell phones incredible range. A walkie-talkie can transmit perhaps a mile. A CB radio, because it has much higher power, can transmit perhaps 5 miles. Someone using a cell phone, on the other hand, can drive clear across a city and maintain a conversation the entire time. Cells are what give a cell phone its incredible range."

from
How do cell phones work


-----------------------------------------------------

so cell phones, wifi, wireless networks are all massless information that can be sent over the air waves and don't use electrons or photons when transmitting but use frequency.

 

[Michael]

thats funny you say that because there is a link to another thread on Hell topic where I post many quotes from early church on Hell (visit it if you want)

http://www.christianforums.com/t7648154-41/#post60526941

If I get some time, I may do that. How come Judaism has no concept of eternal torment? Origen also described "hell", but it had nothing to do with eternal torment. His description of it does however jive with the afterlife beliefs of Judaism. Keep in mind that most of Christ's audience were Jews.

 

[Michael]

Ah, it happens.

I googled the author of that book and cannot find a single thing about him, published papers or anything to back up his claimed credentials other than his own website.

Really? I didn't check to make sure they all relate to the same individual but I had no trouble finding work by that name on Google Scholar.

Amit Goswami - Google Scholar

 

[mkatzwork]

Really? I didn't check to make sure they all relate to the same individual but I had no trouble finding work by that name on Google Scholar.

Amit Goswami - Google Scholar

I was referring to William Bray - the second book you listed...(Chopra et al. are well known but there's really no science at all in there)

 

[mkatzwork]

I doubt wireless communication uses electrons and photons.

Electrons - no, photons - yes.

What on earth do you think electromagnetic radiation is? Radio waves can be described in terms of a stream of low energy photons...just as light can be described as a stream of higher energy photons...

 

[Michael]

I was referring to William Bray - the second book you listed...

Ah, I didn't really check him out much. I was just noting that such ideas have been around for awhile and was just citing a (any) second example.

(Chopra et al. are well known but there's really no science at all in there)

You've read that book have you?

 

[createdtoworship]

Electrons - no, photons - yes.

What on earth do you think electromagnetic radiation is? Radio waves can be described in terms of a stream of low energy photons...just as light can be described as a stream of higher energy photons...

whats that have to do with cell phones

lol

 

[createdtoworship]

If I get some time, I may do that. How come Judaism has no concept of eternal torment? Origen also described "hell", but it had nothing to do with eternal torment. His description of it does however jive with the afterlife beliefs of Judaism. Keep in mind that most of Christ's audience were Jews.

Thats why he used Gehennah as a term for the lake of fire.

To associate with anctient jewish paganism that they knew about.

To tell them that they too would perish if they did not repent.

 

[mkatzwork]

Ah, I didn't really check him out much. I was just noting that such ideas have been around for awhile and was just citing a (any) second example.

Might find another example if I were you!

You've read that book have you?

That one, no (I don't think), but other Chopra books - yes. My wife has a bunch of them in the garage. Haven't opened in a long time and not planning to again, since they're basically toilet paper - actually, not even soft enough for that.

The man is a pseudoscientist who makes many legitimate and valid claims about the experiences that one can have in a meditative state and the feelings they may induce, but pretty much nothing he says is scientifically sound when it comes to the extrapolations he makes about the physical nature of the universe. He claims to be able to heal people on the quantum level which is of course an entirely laughable idea. It's quackery, nothing less, dressed up using words appropriated from physics.

 

[mkatzwork]

whats that have to do with cell phones

lol

Seriously? Please say no...

 

[createdtoworship]

Seriously? Please say no...

oh I see cell phones use low level photons, thats cool.

but photons are massless, unlike the electron

"photons: massless packets of energy that travel at the speed of light. In fact, EM radiation behaves as both a particle and a wave at the same time. EM waves can be characterized by any of three properties: wavelength (&#955 - the distance between two adjacent crests of the wave, frequency (f) - the number of wave oscillations per second, or the energy (E) of the individual photons in the wave. For all types of EM radiation, the simple relationships between wavelength, frequency, and energy are: "

How Radio Waves Are Produced

 

[mkatzwork]

Oh dear. Since you only just discovered that radio waves are electromagnetic radiation, I'm not sure you grasp why we think photons are massless? Can you answer it without the help of google?

I have a degree in physics, just as an FYI.

oh I see cell phones use low level photons, thats cool.

but photons are massless, unlike the electron

"photons: massless packets of energy that travel at the speed of light. In fact, EM radiation behaves as both a particle and a wave at the same time. EM waves can be characterized by any of three properties: wavelength (&#955 - the distance between two adjacent crests of the wave, frequency (f) - the number of wave oscillations per second, or the energy (E) of the individual photons in the wave. For all types of EM radiation, the simple relationships between wavelength, frequency, and energy are: "

How Radio Waves Are Produced

 

[createdtoworship]

Oh dear. Since you only just discovered that radio waves are electromagnetic radiation, I'm not sure you grasp why we think photons are massless? Can you answer it without the help of google?

I have a degree in physics, just as an FYI.

okay we are commiting a fallacy now

poisoning the well

Poisoning the well (or attempting to poison the well) is a rhetorical device where adverse information about a target is pre-emptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing everything that the target person is about to say. Poisoning the well can be a special case of argumentum ad hominem, and the term was first used with this sense by John Henry Newman in his work Apologia Pro Vita Sua (1864).[1] The origin of the term lies in well poisoning, an ancient wartime practice of pouring poison into sources of fresh water before an invading army in order to diminish the invading army's strength.

from
wikipedia

 

[ExpoTheo]

If I get some time, I may do that. How come Judaism has no concept of eternal torment?

I wonder how much of that teaching was around before Dante wrote his book.

 

[createdtoworship]

All souls are immortal, even those of the wicked. Yet, it would be better for them if they were not deathless. For they are punished with the endless vengeance of quenchless fire. Since they do not die, it is impossible for them to have an end put to their misery.

(from a post-Nicene manuscript fragment)

From Ignatius of Antioch (110AD)
Ignatius was a student of the Apostle John, and succeeded the Apostle Peter as the Bishop of Antioch. He wrote a number of important letters to believers in churches in the area:

how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him. (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2)

From “The Martyrdom of Polycarp” (155AD)
This work was written by an Early Church Father (unknown author) and is dated very early in the history of Christianity. It describes the death of Polycarp, a disciple of the Apostle John, and also describes early teachings of the church:

Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire (“Martyrdom of Polycarp” 2:3)

 

[mkatzwork]

Not really. I'm not the one appealing to science that I don't understand - otherwise what was your point when you pointed out that the photon is massless? You brought it up...and then posted a Wikipedia page to educate people of whose knowledge or lack thereof physics you could not have known.
(the two word answer is special relativity, by the way)

No ridiculing intended, but when you rebutt someone by saying that cellphones "don't use photons" you're going to get some heat

okay we are commiting a fallacy now

poisoning the well

Poisoning the well (or attempting to poison the well) is a rhetorical device where adverse information about a target is pre-emptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing everything that the target person is about to say. Poisoning the well can be a special case of argumentum ad hominem, and the term was first used with this sense by John Henry Newman in his work Apologia Pro Vita Sua (1864).[1] The origin of the term lies in well poisoning, an ancient wartime practice of pouring poison into sources of fresh water before an invading army in order to diminish the invading army's strength.

from
wikipedia