Physical universe vs spiritual realm

[Tayla]

My favorite examples of emergent properties are these:

Matter >>> life >>> consciousness

My favorite emergent property sequence:

God --> Spiritual realm having souls and spirits (and consciousness) --> Physical material universe having chemical biological life.

 

[Zed Aliz Zed]

Note: I could not find a suitable forum so I chose "Physical & Life Sciences" as perhaps the closest. It's probably more along the lines of "Metaphysics", or "Christianity & Science", or some such.


Curious what y'all think about this topic. I think it is compatible with Christianity.

(1) I propose scientists are correct about the physical material universe. Life exists only in the chemical, biological sense. The scientific method has yielded much knowledge.

(2) I propose also there is a spiritual realm containing: cognition, consciousness, creativity, emotions, feelings, ideas, life, love, mathematics, memories, mind, reason, souls, spirits, symbols, the meaning in languages, the part of God we interact with, the unconscious and subconscious mind, the will.

(3) The soul communicates with the body, perhaps via some quantum mechanics function...

1. Body to soul: data inputs to the senses, is processed by the brain, then sent to the soul.
2. Soul to body: the will determines what action it wants to perform, then sends command to the body, received by the brain, transmitted to the muscles for movement.

Here are things I hope we *don't* discuss; they are off topic (start your own thread if you wish to discuss these)...

1. There is no scientific evidence for a non-material realm.
2. Young earth creationism. I am old-earth, pro-science.
3. The Bible has errors (I prefer to call these fiction) and anachronisms.
4. I am a born-again, radically-saved, on-fire-for-the-Lord Christian, a Trinitarian and believer in the Nicene Creed. If you don't believe it, I don't want to hear about it.

first, you have to prove a soul exists and that conciseness can exist outside of the body.
as far as I see the soul is nothing but the metaphorical sentience that higher thinking beings possess. for the "soul" to exist outside the body would be a bit tricky. to be sentient you have to distinguish yourself from everything else. and be aware of yourself and surroundings. many animals cant do this. it's why when they look at a mirror they freak out. you can almost see the gears turning in there head but they never quite seem to get it.

furthermore if one can be conscious outside there body. what exactly are they made of? if its energy it should be measurable. since there is no sufficient evidence of that energy that's ruled out.

A quantum computer with a given number of qubits is fundamentally different from a classical computer composed of the same number of classical bits. For example, representing the state of an n-qubit system on a classical computer requires the storage of 2n complex coefficients, while to characterize the state of a classical n-bit system it is sufficient to provide the values of the n bits, that is, only n numbers. Although this fact may seem to indicate that qubits can hold exponentially more information than their classical counterparts, care must be taken not to overlook the fact that the qubits are only in a probabilistic superposition of all of their states. This means that when the final state of the qubits is measured, they will only be found in one of the possible configurations they were in before the measurement. It is generally incorrect to think of a system of qubits as being in one particular state before the measurement since the fact that they were in a superposition of states before the measurement was made directly affects the possible outcomes of the computation.

or in English Rather than store information using bits represented by 0s or 1s as conventional digital computers do, quantum computers use quantum bits, or qubits, to encode information as 0s, 1s, or both at the same time. This superposition of states—along with the other quantum mechanical phenomena of entanglement and tunneling—enables quantum computers to manipulate enormous combinations of states at once.

so I am not sure where the soul would fit in there. and while there is probably a metaphysical plane to state its anything like ours is a large assumption.

 

[durangodawood]

My favorite emergent property sequence:

God --> Spiritual realm having souls and spirits (and consciousness) --> Physical material universe having chemical biological life.

How is that an example of emergent properties?

Does the spiritual realm have new and different properties that are not completely explicable in terms of God? Is the physical universe not explicable in terms of the rules that govern God or the spiritual realm?

Sequence in time or creator/creation does not imply emergent properties.

 

[Radrook]

How about if we call the spiritual realm another dimension. Will that be more acceptable to the scientific community?

 

[durangodawood]

How about if we call the spiritual realm another dimension. Will that be more acceptable to the scientific community?

To just "call" anything sounds kind of un scientific.

 

[Ophiolite]

How about if we call the spiritual realm another dimension. Will that be more acceptable to the scientific community?

No. It would not relate to the scientific definition of "dimension". Perhaps you have been watching to many SF films.

 

[Radrook]

No. It would not relate to the scientific definition of "dimension". Perhaps you have been watching to many SF films.

I never claimed that it would scientifically relate to the current scientific view of what a dimension is.
On the other hand I have see physicists speculate about possible life in other dimensions. So perhaps they aren't all quite in agreement there, In any case, what I am talking about hasn't anything to di with the accuracy of the term dimension as much as it does with the propensity of being averse to anything religious which borders on the psychologically pathological. That can come from being fed too many ideas which have absolutely no foundation in reality, have never been seen to occur in nature, can't be proven in a lab and yet are put forth glibly as if they are indisputable fact.

 

[Ophiolite]

I never claimed that it would scientifically relate to the current scientific view of what a dimension is.

But you did suggest that calling the spiritual realm "another dimension" might be more acceptable to the scientific community. What on Earth would make you think using a scientific term incorrectly would be acceptable to the scientific community? You absolutely did not think that through!

On the other hand I have see physicists speculate about possible life in other dimensions.

Citation required. (Such speculation verges on pseudoscience, or is employed to get air time on third rate documentaries. If you have a genuine example, provide the details here and I shall likely be persuaded.)

In any case, what I am talking about hasn't anything to di with the accuracy of the term dimension as much as it does with the propensity of being averse to anything religious which borders on the psychologically pathological.

Since I don't suffer from that particular affliction that is irrelevant to me.

That can come from being fed too many ideas which have absolutely no foundation in reality, have never been seen to occur in nature, can't be proven in a lab and yet are put forth glibly as if they are indisputable fact.

If you are talking about the vast body of evidence, collected over the course of more than two centuries, from the fields of palaeontology, botany, zoology, microbiology, embryology, anatomy and genetics that support the reality of evolution and the modern synthesis that accounts for it, then you are being dishonest with yourself. If you won't open your eyes, I cannot help you.

 

[joshua 1 9]

(1) I propose scientists are correct about the physical material universe. Life exists only in the chemical, biological sense. The scientific method has yielded much knowledge.

Debra Hiehoff Phd (neurobiologist) wrote: "The language of life" that talks about how cells communicate. The language of life is based on chemistry. Up to 60 chemicals are involved in one cells communication with another cell. 60 trillion cells function as a single organism.

If we look at the Prairie Vole we see a rodent that mates for life. This gives us some insights into love in humans. Just how hormones like oxytocin shapes who we are. Oxytocin is a hormone that plays a role in bonding, [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], trust, and maternal instincts. There are oxytocin receptors in the heart that play a role in regulation of the heart.

 

[Tayla]

Debra Hiehoff Phd (neurobiologist) wrote: "The language of life" that talks about how cells communicate. The language of life is based on chemistry. Up to 60 chemicals are involved in one cells communication with another cell. 60 trillion cells function as a single organism.

If we look at the Prairie Vole we see a rodent that mates for life. This gives us some insights into love in humans. Just how hormones like oxytocin shapes who we are. Oxytocin is a hormone that plays a role in bonding, [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], trust, and maternal instincts. There are oxytocin receptors in the heart that play a role in regulation of the heart.

Thank you for your thoughtful comments.

I propose the chemical, biological components reside in the physical realm. The other components (such as love, emotions, pleasure, bonding, trust, maternal instincts) reside in the spiritual realm. There is communication between the two realms so they function holistically.

 

[Tayla]

Interesting and helpful comments. Thank y'all.

 

[durangodawood]

Thank you for your thoughtful comments.

I propose the chemical, biological components reside in the physical realm. The other components (such as love, emotions, pleasure, bonding, trust, maternal instincts) reside in the spiritual realm. There is communication between the two realms so they function holistically.

Why do the chemical components associated with emotions need to exist in the physical realm IF the emotional work is happening in the spiritual realm? Sounds totally redundant to me.

 

[Tayla]

Why do the chemical components associated with emotions need to exist in the physical realm IF the emotional work is happening in the spiritual realm? Sounds totally redundant to me.

Thank you for your perceptive question.

Perhaps it's analogous to a car. Why do you need a driver to turn the steering wheel since all the mechanisms for steering reside in the car?

I shall ponder this question.

I think our conscious experience is limited to brain functions to distinguish us from pure spirit beings. For them, their only sensory inputs are from their spiritual senses of their spiritual body. Since we are hybrid beings (physical and spiritual) we require the physical bodily components to root us to the physical realm, to limit our scope of awareness to the physical realm.

 

[Strathos]

Thank you for your perceptive question.

Perhaps it's analogous to a car. Why do you need a driver to turn the steering wheel since all the mechanisms for steering reside in the car?

I shall ponder this question.

I think our conscious experience is limited to brain functions to distinguish us from pure spirit beings. For them, their only sensory inputs are from their spiritual senses of their spiritual body. Since we are hybrid beings (physical and spiritual) we require the physical bodily components to root us to the physical realm, to limit our scope of awareness to the physical realm.

I think of it as like a radio. Without the physical radio (the brain) the radio signal (the spirit) still exists, but you can't detect it. By manipulating the radio (changing the volume, pitch, frequency, etc.) you can alter the signal, but the radio is still just receiving the signal.

 

[durangodawood]

I think of it as like a radio. Without the physical radio (the brain) the radio signal (the spirit) still exists, but you can't detect it. By manipulating the radio (changing the volume, pitch, frequency, etc.) you can alter the signal, but the radio is still just receiving the signal.

...Perhaps it's analogous to a car. Why do you need a driver to turn the steering wheel since all the mechanisms for steering reside in the car?..

These analogies would make sense if oxytocin and similar hormones regulated some critical physical function. Instead they seem to do nothing but prompt feelings, which you claim reside in the non-physical realm.

 

[Tayla]

I think of it as like a radio. Without the physical radio (the brain) the radio signal (the spirit) still exists, but you can't detect it. By manipulating the radio (changing the volume, pitch, frequency, etc.) you can alter the signal, but the radio is still just receiving the signal.

Wow. Excellent analogy of how the soul (spirit) communicates to the body. Thank you.

 

[Tayla]

These analogies would make sense if oxytocin and similar hormones regulated some critical physical function. Instead they seem to do nothing but prompt feelings, which you claim reside in the non-physical realm.

Yes, you raise a good point. But Oxytocin does have physiological and psychological functions. Yet, as you note, it also has conscious experiential effects.

The subjective conscious feeling of love (for example) are, in my opinion, outside the physical material universe. All I am claiming is that these are associated or correlated in some way with brain or other bodily function.

 

[durangodawood]

Yes, you raise a good point. But Oxytocin does have physiological and psychological functions. Yet, as you note, it also has conscious experiential effects.

The subjective conscious feeling of love (for example) are, in my opinion, outside the physical material universe. All I am claiming is that these are associated or correlated in some way with brain or other bodily function.

What function is that?

My understanding is their function is to produce the feelings in our mind. But that would indicate that the feelings are part of the physical brain complex.

If the feelings "live" in the supernatural realm, then there's no need for oxytocin and similar, unless we can discover some necessary physical function that they perform.

 

[Tayla]

What function is that?

Please refer to a source such as Wikipedia for info about the physiological and psychological functions of Oxytocin. I don't know if these facts change your comments in any way.

 

[Tayla]

If the feelings "live" in the supernatural realm, then there's no need for oxytocin and similar, unless we can discover some necessary physical function that they perform.

The question of the subjective experience of consciousness is a similar problem. If it provides no useful physical function, what good is it? This implies, I suppose, that it doesn't exist.

My view is, these things do exist in the spiritual realm, and they control the body in the physical realm via some mechanism I speculated about in the OP.