Physical universe vs spiritual realm

[Tayla]

Note: I could not find a suitable forum so I chose "Physical & Life Sciences" as perhaps the closest. It's probably more along the lines of "Metaphysics", or "Christianity & Science", or some such.


Curious what y'all think about this topic. I think it is compatible with Christianity.

(1) I propose scientists are correct about the physical material universe. Life exists only in the chemical, biological sense. The scientific method has yielded much knowledge.

(2) I propose also there is a spiritual realm containing: cognition, consciousness, creativity, emotions, feelings, ideas, life, love, mathematics, memories, mind, reason, souls, spirits, symbols, the meaning in languages, the part of God we interact with, the unconscious and subconscious mind, the will.

(3) The soul communicates with the body, perhaps via some quantum mechanics function...

1. Body to soul: data inputs to the senses, is processed by the brain, then sent to the soul.
2. Soul to body: the will determines what action it wants to perform, then sends command to the body, received by the brain, transmitted to the muscles for movement.

I have written an article with more detail here. Please feel free to read it.

Here are things I hope we don't discuss; they are off topic (start your own thread if you wish to discuss these)...

1. There is no scientific evidence for a non-material realm.
2. Young earth creationism. I am old-earth, pro-science.
3. The Bible has errors (I prefer to call these fiction) and anachronisms.
4. I am a born-again, radically-saved, on-fire-for-the-Lord Christian, a Trinitarian and believer in the Nicene Creed. If you don't believe it, I don't want to hear about it.

 

[The IbanezerScrooge]

(2) I propose also there is a spiritual realm containing: cognition, consciousness, creativity, emotions, feelings, ideas, life, love, mathematics, memories, mind, reason, souls, spirits, symbols, the meaning in languages, the part of God we interact with, the unconscious and subconscious mind, the will.

Ok, what is your evide...

Here are things I hope we *don't* discuss; they are off topic (start your own thread if you wish to discuss these)...

1. There is no scientific evidence for a non-material realm.

Oh.

Then this is indeed the wrong forum. If you do not wish to discuss the scientific evidence for this spiritual realm, or it can't be discussed, then... well... what's there to discuss in a science forum?

This sounds like theology, maybe?

 

[Audacious]

If our minds are essentially in the spiritual realm, then why are they affected by things like brain injuries and stuff? I mean, if you give the brain an electric shock in the right place, you can make someone mad.

It seems a bit like the big organic computer in your noggin is us.

(I'm pretty sure there's a soul, but I'm also pretty sure our... ourness is in our brains. I have no idea how that works.).

Edit: As a person who's had severe, treatment-resistant depression for 9 years, I am fairly certain that cognition, consciousness, emotions, etc can be affected by issues within the brain, too. This doesn't seem to agree with the idea that consciousness etc are spiritual rather than physical.

 

[Tayla]

This sounds like theology, maybe?

I didn't want to limit discussion to Christians only.

 

[Tayla]

If our minds are essentially in the spiritual realm, then why are they affected by things like brain injuries and stuff? I mean, if you give the brain an electric shock in the right place, you can make someone mad.

Yes, I agree. Consciousness is tightly correlated with brain function.

 

[AV1611VET]

If I remember correctly, man is a tripartite being:

1. body = soma = receives information from empirical senses

2. soul = psyche = resides in heart = seat of mind, will, emotions

3. spirit = pneuma = receives information from the word of God

The brain is part of the body; the mind is part of the soul.

 

[The IbanezerScrooge]

I didn't want to limit discussion to Christians only.

Ok, sure, I can respect that.

I don't think there is a "soul" or anything after "you."

From my limited perspective then I would echo what Audacious said above. By all indications You are your brain. "The Mind" is what the brain does. You mentioned quantum mechanics, and I'm certainly no expert, but one thing I think I do understand regarding quantum field theory is that everything we experience, all matter and energy and every state in which we find it is an average of the probability that the quantum particles will take on that configuration and they are always in flux. There is a certain probability, no matter how infinitesimally greater than zero it might be, that an apple placed on a solid desk could fall through it. All of the properties of that desk and the apple and everything else we experience in our reality is emergent from average of the probabilities of quantum states. From my understanding this is something for which we have pretty solid evidence that this is the way the universe works on a fundamental level. With that in mind, I tend to think that our consciousness and thoughts and everything that makes you you are emergent as well.

I hope that made sense. That's about the extent of what I could offer intelligently about the subject and I may still be a bit off.

I would recommend this video as a jumping of point to further inquiry into this topic. It's fascinating stuff for sure.

 

[Tayla]

By all indications You are your brain. "The Mind" is what the brain does.

This may be, but it doesn't explain the subjective experience of consciousness.

I tend to think that our consciousness and thoughts and everything that makes you you are emergent as well.

I don't subscribe to the idea that consciousness is an emergent property of matter. The subjective experience of consciousness is nothing like matter. There must be something else. That's why I'm a dualist.

 

[The IbanezerScrooge]

subjective experience of consciousness

What do you mean by this phrase?

 

[Tayla]

What do you mean by this phrase?

What I experience when conscious; that's how I've heard many people refer to it. As opposed to something objective.

 

[The IbanezerScrooge]

What I experience when conscious; that's how I've heard many people refer to it. As opposed to something objective.

What about that convinces you or supports your belief that there is a "soul" separate from the body? I understand what the phrase means, but how does it illustrate what you're getting at in your OP?

 

[Tayla]

What about that convinces you or supports your belief that there is a "soul" separate from the body? I understand what the phrase means, but how does it illustrate what you're getting at in your OP?

I accept there is a soul and a spiritual realm because it is a Christian teaching. I agree with all of science except their insistence that the physical material universe is all that exists; it leaves me feeling spiritually empty delving into it for very long. I accept the eyewitness accounts of the writers of the gospels as historically credible and trustworthy. I also accept my intuition which tells me: (1) there is a God having only good characteristics, and (2) evil is a living spirit.

As I mentioned in my OP, I have no interest in discussing whether or not there is scientific evidence for a non-material realm. Discussions on that topic, I've observed, never go anywhere. I see nothing wrong with the assumption of materialism; it is sensible. I just don't accept it, that's all.

I'm happy to continue discussing with you...

 

[The IbanezerScrooge]

I'm happy to continue discussing with you...

As I said before. There just doesn't seem to be anything to discuss.

 

[DogmaHunter]

(2) I propose also there is a spiritual realm containing: cognition, consciousness, creativity, emotions, feelings, ideas, life, love, mathematics, memories, mind, reason, souls, spirits, symbols, the meaning in languages, the part of God we interact with, the unconscious and subconscious mind, the will.

Do you acknowledge that all these things manifest through a physical brain?
And that we have exactly zero examples of any such things manifesting WITHOUT material underpinnings?

And that as such, it is correct to infer that all those things are products of the material brain?

(3) The soul communicates with the body, perhaps via some quantum mechanics function...

Not sure why quantum mechanics is being pulled into this.
But anyway.... wouldn't that exclude the "soul" from being "non-physical", if it manifests through the very physical mechanics of the quantum world?

1. Body to soul: data inputs to the senses, is processed by the brain, then sent to the soul.
2. Soul to body: the will determines what action it wants to perform, then sends command to the body, received by the brain, transmitted to the muscles for movement.

This is the part where you demonstrate this "soul" as existant, seperate from a material body/brain.

Here are things I hope we *don't* discuss; they are off topic (start your own thread if you wish to discuss these)...

1. There is no scientific evidence for a non-material realm.

If you are going to come into the science forum and create a thread about a "non-material realm", you should fully expect to be asked to provide scientific evidence in support of the existance of that realm. Otherwise, what are we talking about?
If you can't show it to actually exist, then we might as well talk about Middle Earth or the Matrix.

 

[DogmaHunter]

I didn't want to limit discussion to Christians only.

That's great.

But if the atheists are not allowed to ask for evidence in support of the realm that is to be discussed.... then what is it the point? What are we talking about, if the only reference we have on the subject is just "you believing it"?

 

[DogmaHunter]

This may be, but it doesn't explain the subjective experience of consciousness.

If the mind is what the brain "does", then that question becomes invalid or obsolete.

It's like explaining how muscles work and then following the explanation up with "yeah ok, that may be, but what is strength???"

I don't subscribe to the idea that consciousness is an emergent property of matter.

Why not?

The subjective experience of consciousness is nothing like matter

Nobody said that it is "like matter". It is said that it seems to be produced by matter.

There must be something else

Why?

 

[DogmaHunter]

I accept there is a soul and a spiritual realm because it is a Christian teaching.

Aaah.
Well, as you may well expect, something being a "teaching" (christian or otherwise), will generally not be seen as sufficient for accepting it as correct for most atheists / sceptics.

We require something more then "this idea / book / religion / worldview claims it is the case!"

I agree with all of science except their insistence that the physical material universe is all that exists;

Science doesn't claim that, nore does it insist on that.
At best, it might say something like that it can only investigate reality to that particular extent. And not because "nothing else exist", but rather because "nothing else" can be gauged empirically.

In other words: the conceptual "non-physical / spiritual realm" can't be show to be existant or not. It's essentially an unfalsifiable, unsupportable notion.

Does that mean that it doesn't exist? No. But it does mean that you can safely ignore it. Because those things that don't manifest or can't be shown to manifest, have no effect at all on anything. They can be treated as if they aren't ther / don't exist. The outcome remains the same.

Which is pretty consistent with ignoring any non-existant thing.
It doesn't matter if I "consider" the existance of an undetectable dragon who is about to eat me. Either way, I won't be eaten and live to see another day.

Non-existing dragons can't harm me. Existing dragons that have no manifestation at all in our universe, can't harm me either. And they can't be distinguished from non-existing dragons either.

I think of gods / spirits / ghosts / etc in the exact same way.

it leaves me feeling spiritually empty delving into it for very long.

The purpose of science is to explain physical reality. It's purpose is not to make you feel a "spiritual" anything.

Although I must also say that my experience is the exact opposite.
When on holiday, especially on the beach, I love reading some big scientific work on various topics. I've read books on biology, geology, history, physics, etc.

Many times have I been moved emotionally and have I felt deeply connected with the universe, as well as experienced feelings of wonder and awe at the magnificent beautry of the workings of reality.

That's off course a subjective experience.
I can "spiritually" enjoy a lot of things like that.

I can be moved to tears by a 4-line poem. I can get goosbumbs from a lovely piece of music. I can enter a "trance" while playing the drums in such a way that it feels like the universe ceases to exist and it's only about the drums and the rythm.

Atheists aren't "spiritually dead".
But science's purpose is to explain reality - nothing more, nothing less.

How one experiences reality and the explanations thereof... I'ld say that's quite a subjective experience. My wife for example, couldn't care less.

I could tell her with great passion, wonder, amazement,... about how the atoms in your left hand likely were fabricated in the core of a star millions of lightyears away from the star that fabricated atoms in your right hand. And I'm like "wooooooow!" and she'ld be all like "so what?"

To each his own.

I accept the eyewitness accounts of the writers of the gospels as historically credible and trustworthy. I also accept my intuition which tells me: (1) there is a God having only good characteristics, and (2) evil is a living spirit.

Well yeah... these beliefs are part of your religious doctrine that you "have to" adhere to, right?

As I mentioned in my OP, I have no interest in discussing whether or not there is scientific evidence for a non-material realm.

Then there is nothing to talk about in this thread.
We might as well be discussing Middle Earth. Or the realm I wondered in my dream last night.

Discussions on that topic, I've observed, never go anywhere. I see nothing wrong with the assumption of materialism; it is sensible. I just don't accept it, that's all.

Just for the recod, I don't make an assumption of "materialism".

I could go along with saying that currently, my tentative stance is indeed a materialistic one. But only because I have zero reason to think otherwise. Give me reasons and I'll change my mind without looking back. And rejoice by the fact that I just learned something mindblowing.

 

[durangodawood]

This may be, but it doesn't explain the subjective experience of consciousness.

I don't subscribe to the idea that consciousness is an emergent property of matter. The subjective experience of consciousness is nothing like matter. There must be something else. That's why I'm a dualist.

But thats exactly what an emergent property IS: a new sort of "mode" thats not explicable by the rules of the mode it emerged from.

 

[Tayla]

But thats exactly what an emergent property IS: a new sort of "mode" thats not explicable by the rules of the mode it emerged from.

Seems something new coming out of something pre-existing is unscientific. I would hardly consider consciousness as a "mode".

The usual kind of example for emergent property is the wetness of water. But these kinds of things are constructs of the mind; the atoms know nothing about it. There is no law of physics of wetness. Consciousness is not like this. There is no conscious observer constructing it in his mind.

 

[durangodawood]

Seems something new coming out of something pre-existing is unscientific. I would hardly consider consciousness as a "mode".

The usual kind of example for emergent property is the wetness of water. But these kinds of things are constructs of the mind; the atoms know nothing about it. There is no law of physics of wetness. Consciousness is not like this. There is no conscious observer constructing it in his mind.

My favorite examples of emergent properties are these:

Matter >>> life >>> consciousness

Life seems to have emerged from matter. Particular arrangements of matter and increasing complexity allowed for a new sort of order that behaves by rules not entirely explicable by the rules that govern raw matter. Similarly with consciousness emerging from life.