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Physical Healing in the Atonement (PHIA)

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MoNiCa4316

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here's what I think...

I think that yes, faith is important for healing. We can clearly see this in the Bible. And sometimes people don't receive from God because their faith is too weak.

BUT.. I think it's very important to remember that it's not our faith that makes the miracles happen, it's God's choice.. it's a gift of grace...not something we can "buy" with faith. Miracles have no "currency". There have been times when God chose to grant someone a miracle or a healing because they trusted Him soo much, but this is solely because of His MERCY, not because they 'earned' it with their trust. It's because He looked upon them with compassion, since they trusted Him so much even in trials. God does reward that. But.. we should always glorify God's mercy because He is not obligated to give us anything, but He does, out of love.

I see that in some churches..faith IS treated as a 'currency'. I won't name any churches. But in some of them, it seems like they're saying... God wants to heal us, make us rich, give us all this worldly stuff..and we'll get all of it if we only believe with all our hearts. And then if people suffer..if they're struggling with something, or sick, or have depression... instead of reaching out to them in love, their Christian friends tell them that they're just not believing enough. WELLL to put it simply..this can mess a person up!! It's so judgemental and just...wrong.. even on a theological level. Christ said that it's difficult for a rich man to get to heaven (possible, but difficult). This is why many early Church Christians, and also the monks/nuns of today give away all their possessions and become poor, because in being poor they gain more of Christ. The reason this happens is because this is how we die to self and to the world!! Only if we give up ourselves will we truly find God.. and these modern churches, they're saying the opposite. That God wants us to have all this stuff. But they don't see that if we gain it, it would become a *temptation* for us to be even more worldly... God loves us too much to give us everything we ask for!

Sorry I got off topic lol.. we're talking about healing.. well as I was saying, in some churches, it's like if you're sick then your faith is too small and you're a BAD CHRISTIAN..
But then I have to wonder, was the faith of the Saints and Martyrs 'too small'? No.. They could heal others with their prayers, but let themselves suffer, for the sake of God's Kingdom. This takes MORE faith.. they believed that God will use their suffering, without any signs or evidence or instant results. The Martyrs could have asked God to deliver them from their enemies, instead they died for Christ, trusting Him that everything He said is true.

So...yes we should have faith when we pray, yes we should trust God with all our hearts, and yes we should really believe when we ask for healing.. but if nothing happens...we shouldn't get discouraged...we should STILL TRUST GOD... and this consists in trusting Him that even though our prayers weren't answered, that is for the best, that He knows what He is doing, and will bring everything to good. At its best, it's a submission to God's will inspite of ones own suffering; saying: Lord if this is Your will, that is enough for me, even if I dont get anything in return and none of my prayers will ever be answered.
Of course God is merciful :) and does answer prayer. But we should remember it's because of His love and mercy, not because we were "faithful enough".. if a great sinner were to ask for mercy he'd receive just as much of it, maybe even more, than if a good Christian does. God does in fact reward faithfulness, and good works, and we need both...that is why "the faith of a righteous man avails much" and why some of us ask the Saints and Mary to pray for us. If we call ourselves Christians but don't trust God and don't live out our faith, we might not go to heaven in the end. But what I'm saying is that sometimes when people say "I trust God", they just mean that they trust HIm to do what THEY want.. instead, we should trust Him that His will is best for us. And that no matter how much we suffer, God will be with us. Isn't that somehow even better than simply being healed; having Jesus always be with us and share in our pain, comfort us through it..this helps us understand how much He loves us..

above all, we should just be surrendered to God's will.

And I have to work on this myself, so I'm not speaking from a pedestal here.

God bless:hug:
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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The bottom line is faith. You either have it or you don't. Plain and simple. And if one is living in sin they cannot be walking by faith.

Peace
Are you able to lift a Mountain yet? :wave:

Matthew 21:21 Answering the Jesus said to them, "Verily I am saying to ye, if ever ye may be having Faith, and no ye may be doubting, not only the of the fig-tree ye shall be doing, but even-ever to the Mountain, this, ye may saying, 'Be being lifted up! and be being cast! into the Sea', it shall be becoming"; [Revelation 8:8]

Hebrew 12:18 For ye came not near to the Mountain touched and scorched with fire, and to blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19 and a sound of a trumpet, and a voice of sayings, which those having heard did entreat that a word might not be added to them,

Reve 8:8 And the second Messenger trumpets and as-like a Mountain, great to fire burning, was cast into the Sea and became the third of the Sea blood
 
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ARBITER01

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Can you help me out?
what book, chapter states it was limited to only
prophets?

Simple question, who was operating in the gifts of The Spirit back in those days before Jesus?
 
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spiritman

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Are you able to lift a Mountain yet? :wave:

Matthew 21:21 Answering the Jesus said to them, "Verily I am saying to ye, if ever ye may be having Faith, and no ye may be doubting, not only the of the fig-tree ye shall be doing, but even-ever to the Mountain, this, ye may saying, 'Be being lifted up! and be being cast! into the Sea', it shall be becoming"; [Revelation 8:8]

Hebrew 12:18 For ye came not near to the Mountain touched and scorched with fire, and to blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19 and a sound of a trumpet, and a voice of sayings, which those having heard did entreat that a word might not be added to them,

Reve 8:8 And the second Messenger trumpets and as-like a Mountain, great to fire burning, was cast into the Sea and became the third of the Sea blood

I have mountain moving faith. Haven't had a reason to move one yet. But I can move demons.

I love Mt 21:21. We can do it if we believe.
:D
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Simple question, who was operating in the gifts of The Spirit back in those days before Jesus?
Umm, the Prophets? Of course there were both those from YHWH and those from the Evil-One.

Ezekiel 8:3 And He putteth forth a form of a hand, and taketh me by a lock of my head, and lift me up doth a spirit between the Land and the Heavens, and it bringeth me in to Jerusalem in visions of God, unto the opening of the inner gate that is facing the north, where [is] the seat of the figure of jealousy that is making jealous,

Reve 17:3 And he carries me away into a wilderness in spirit, and I saw a Woman sitting on a beast, scarlet, being replete of names of blasphemy having heads, seven, and horns, ten.
 
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simonthezealot

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No, I am suggesting that lack of healing CAN be due to lack of faith.


I have enough faith to believe God for His salvation, but not
enough to step out and receive the freedom from bondage
that is His will (personal thing I dont want to get into here)


?
Healing does seem to be based very much on your faith unless
I misunderstand these passages... or unless something has changed.

Then touched he their eyes, saying,
According to your faith be it unto you.
And their eyes were opened;

15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick,
and the Lord shall raise him up



The blind man said unto him, Lord, that I might receive my sight.
And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath madea thee whole.

she declared unto him before all the people for what cause
she had touched him, and how she was healed immediately.
48 And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort:
thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.


He even told the disciples themselves that it was due to lack of faith:

19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart,
and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief:
for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith...




Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation,
how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you?
bring him hither to me.



In one place, Jesus Himself "could do no mighty work"!!
(wow) because of...

5 And he could there do no mighty work,
save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief.
And he went round about the villages, teaching.




Thank you,
sunlover
Was the LORD in any of those cases of unbelief or lack of faith ever speaking with people who accepted Him as the Christ?

Look at this...
"Confess your sins one to another, and pray for one another, that ye may be healed."
"The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.”

The simple interpretation here is "sickness is a result of sin.
If people petition the LORD to get well and the remain sick it is likely they have not dealt with what made them sick OR like in John 9 a person is sick or blind in that case "for the glory of God"

I firmly believe that the gift of healing was meant for the 12 and then the 70 only to bear witness to those they were sharing the gospel with because there was NO written testimony at the time about the life of Christ so they would know these 70 and 12 where messengers of God.
 
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ARBITER01

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Umm, the Prophets? Of course there were both those from YHWH and those from the Evil-One.

Exactly, and those prophets of GOD did heal folks at times, so physical healing was not something new with the cross.

The cross brought us salvation, but also allowed us to have access to the same gifts that were operating in those prophets and through Jesus.
 
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sunlover1

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Was the LORD in any of those cases of unbelief or lack of faith ever speaking with people who accepted Him as the Christ?
I dont know and cannot research right now, have to babysit
tonight and then try to make it to the mall.

Look at this...
"Confess your sins one to another, and pray for one another, that ye may be healed."
"The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.”

The simple interpretation here is "sickness is a result of sin.
If people petition the LORD to get well and the remain sick it is likely they have not dealt with what made them sick OR like in John 9 a person is sick or blind in that case "for the glory of God"
I too believe sickness is often a result of sin, if not your own,
then someone elses as well (aids etc)
I firmly believe that the gift of healing was meant for the 12 and then the 70 only to bear witness to those they were sharing the gospel with because there was NO written testimony at the time about the life of Christ so they would know these 70 and 12 where messengers of God
My post was only about what Jesus said about healing and faith.
Your 'faith' has made you well etc.

As far as the 'gift' of healing (and I'm guessing you'd include
other gifts too?) I dont know,... but I've always believed that
He will heal. .............. if you have faith..........Even when
I was just beginning to read the Bible and had little knowledge
of God or His ways, I prayed for my babies when ill because
I'd read "they will lay hands on the sick and they will become
well".
So...I did lay hands on em.

IT seems much more complicated now though doesnt it?
 
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simonthezealot

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but I've always believed that
He will heal. .............. if you have faith..........Even when
I was just beginning to read the Bible and had little knowledge
of God or His ways, I prayed for my babies when ill because
I'd read "they will lay hands on the sick and they will become
well".
So...I did lay hands on em.

IT seems much more complicated now though doesnt it?

I tend to shy away from breaking down peoples view on this to far I just find the whole faith healing a very slippery slope...Because I believe He heals whom He desires.

It is complicated and by no means an issue for disunity among believers.IMO
 
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pinetree

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I have mountain moving faith. Haven't had a reason to move one yet. But I can move demons.

I love Mt 21:21. We can do it if we believe.
:D
well.
I wonder why Pauls garment of clothing healed some..

yet ,why he did not heal this poor chap..:scratch:

Could it be that healing,and faith are not a formula?


2 Timothy 4:20
Erastus stayed in Corinth, and I left Trophimus sick in Miletus.

Paul..he just did not have faith..;)

or he had secret sin lurking,I guess...:doh:
 
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Merlin

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i don't follow your answers here.
Originally Posted by simonthezealot
Because if anyone has enough faith unto salvation clearly they have enough to be healed?
who says?

how does your answer relate?


LittleLambofJesus Originally Posted by Merlin
who says?
Well, Zech 8:23 comes to mine :)

Zechariah 8:23 Thus sayeth YHWH-of Hosts: in-Days, the-those, which they-shall-take-firm-hold a-hem/wing, Ten Mortals/582 'enowsh, from-all Tongues-of the-Nations.
And-They-take-fast/hold in-hem-of a-Man/0376 'iysh, a-Judean/Y@huwdiy, to-say 'We-are-going with-Thee that We-hear Elohiym with-Thee'. [Mark 6:56]

Mark 6:56 And the-where ever He into-journeyed into villages, the cities, the fields/hamlets, in the market-places, they place the ones being sick and they beside-called Him that if-even the hang-foot of the garment of Him they should be touching, and as manysoever as touch of it, were healed [Zech 8:23]
 
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spiritman

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well.
I wonder why Pauls garment of clothing healed some..

yet ,why he did not heal this poor chap..:scratch:

Could it be that healing,and faith are not a formula?


2 Timothy 4:20
Erastus stayed in Corinth, and I left Trophimus sick in Miletus.

Paul..he just did not have faith..;)

or he had secret sin lurking,I guess...:doh:

I find it interesting that you ignore the many scriptures given to prove healing is for today and zero in on this one verse. Straining at a gnat?

If you had read the passages and meditated on them asking the Holy Spirit to help you then spiritual understanding could come.

If Jesus couldn't heal because of unbelief how could Paul or any of us do it. One's faith has much to do with healing as evidenced in the Word. But with Trophimus we don't have any details other than he was sick. Maybe he felt the same way you do about healing. And there are times when healing is gradual and not always immediate.

Bottom line we don't know the details but we do have clear statements regarding God's will to heal all that were sick.

Mt 8:16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:

So, you have faith to believe that its not God's will to heal today and that's what you'll get and I have faith that He does. I believe and you don't. Then that makes me a believer and you an unbeliever in this matter. How can I help you?
 
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ARBITER01

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I find it interesting that you ignore the many scriptures given to prove healing is for today and zero in on this one verse. Straining at a gnat?

Has Pinetree said anything that dismisses healing for today?
 
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pinetree

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I find it interesting that you ignore the many scriptures given to prove healing is for today and zero in on this one verse. Straining at a gnat?

If you had read the passages and meditated on them asking the Holy Spirit to help you then spiritual understanding could come.

If Jesus couldn't heal because of unbelief how could Paul or any of us do it. One's faith has much to do with healing as evidenced in the Word. But with Trophimus we don't have any details other than he was sick. Maybe he felt the same way you do about healing. And there are times when healing is gradual and not always immediate.

Bottom line we don't know the details but we do have clear statements regarding God's will to heal all that were sick.

Mt 8:16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:

So, you have faith to believe that its not God's will to heal today and that's what you'll get and I have faith that He does. I believe and you don't. Then that makes me a believer and you an unbeliever in this matter. How can I help you?

actually you are wrong,God does not seem to need our faith..

2 Timothy 2:13
if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

can I help you?;)
 
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christianmomof3

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So, for the PHIA people, to what degree do you think that people should be able to be healed?
Like, do you think that people should not need glasses if they pray hard enough that the Lord will cure their eyesight?
When I was in high school some "Christian" guys told me that if I was to become a Christian that my eyesight would be healed and I would no longer need glasses. The odd thing was both of those guys wore glasses :eek:.
Anyway, do you PHIA people believe that no one should need glasses if they pray hard enough and that those of us who need glasses are unrepentant sinners who lack faith?
 
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spiritman

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So, for the PHIA people, to what degree do you think that people should be able to be healed?
Like, do you think that people should not need glasses if they pray hard enough that the Lord will cure their eyesight?
When I was in high school some "Christian" guys told me that if I was to become a Christian that my eyesight would be healed and I would no longer need glasses. The odd thing was both of those guys wore glasses :eek:.
Anyway, do you PHIA people believe that no one should need glasses if they pray hard enough and that those of us who need glasses are unrepentant sinners who lack faith?


Mr 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.


I love it when you give me opportunities to quote scripture.

Thanks
 
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christianmomof3

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Mr 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
So, does no one in the PHIA churches wear glasses or contacts or ever get sick or go to the doctor or get overweight or have miscarriages or gets hurt or anything? Wow.
 
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