Physical Healing in the Atonement (PHIA)

[spiritman]

So, does no one in the PHIA churches wear glasses or contacts or ever get sick or go to the doctor or get overweight or have miscarriages or gets hurt or anything? Wow.

Yea, pretty cool huh!

 

[pinetree]

So, does no one in the PHIA churches wear glasses or contacts or ever get sick or go to the doctor or get overweight or have miscarriages or gets hurt or anything? Wow.

 

[spiritman]

Here's another favorite on healing:

Mt 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

Talk about His will, WOW! Praise God!

I love this topic.

 

[sunlover1]

Are you able to lift a Mountain yet?

Matthew 21:21 Answering the Jesus said to them, "Verily I am saying to ye, if ever ye may be having Faith, and no ye may be doubting, not only the of the fig-tree ye shall be doing, but even-ever to the Mountain, this, ye may saying, 'Be being lifted up! and be being cast! into the Sea', it shall be becoming"; [Revelation 8:8]

Hebrew 12:18 For ye came not near to the Mountain touched and scorched with fire, and to blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19 and a sound of a trumpet, and a voice of sayings, which those having heard did entreat that a word might not be added to them,

Reve 8:8 And the second Messenger trumpets and as-like a Mountain, great to fire burning, was cast into the Sea and became the third of the Sea blood

What do you think Jesus meant by that comment?
Do you think He was serious or kidding?
Literal or figurative?
Just curious about your opinion.
(I havent moved any mountains of the earthly type)
love,
sunlover

here's what I think...

I think that yes, faith is important for healing. We can clearly see this in the Bible.

I agree.

And sometimes people don't receive from God because their faith is too weak.

According to Scripture, it seems to be the case, right.

BUT.. I think it's very important to remember that it's not our faith that makes the miracles happen, it's God's choice.. it's a gift of grace...not something we can "buy" with faith. Miracles have no "currency". There have been times when God chose to grant someone a miracle or a healing because they trusted Him soo much, but this is solely because of His MERCY, not because they 'earned' it with their trust. [/quote]
Apparantly not always though, because Jesus did say in several
places "your faith has made you well"
If He said it was their 'faith' that made them well,
then who am I to disagree?

But I agree with your mercy comment too, because it says that
whatsoever a man will sow that shall he also reap.
If one sows to the flesh.. he reaps corruption.
If I SOW to my flesh and fill up on garbage, become obese
and then manage to get myself all clogged up and ill...
well how can God heal me if He's already TOLD me that
I shouldnt be deceived because I WILL reap what I've
sown? So then, it's total mercy. I can plead and ask Him
for His mercy to over rule the sowing/reaping process,
but to be honest, I dont know how much faith I'd have
that He'd hear me or grant my request. IOW, if I hadnt
brought it on myself, I'd be able to believe what it says:
have the elders lay hands on the sick and the prayer
of faith shall raise the sick and they shall be healed.
Does that still work if we're reaping something sown?
Dunno.
Did that make sense?

But in some of them, it seems like they're saying... God wants to heal us, make us rich, give us all this worldly stuff..and we'll get all of it if we only believe with all our hearts. And then if people suffer..if they're struggling with something, or sick, or have depression... instead of reaching out to them in love, their Christian friends tell them that they're just not believing enough.

Yeah, I'm sure there ARE those who'd be so callous.
And it's just as callous to say, well, God wants you to
suffer more, etc.
I think the most biblical thing to do would be to fast and
pray for the person and seek an answer from God Himself,
rather than assuming anything. When one is in the middle
of an affliction, it's very hard for him to have faith, or even
to think straight. I've heard of people who had prayed for
God to heal them and then someone else who was interceeding
on their behalf asked them if they were in unforgiveness..
(Will God hear our prayers for forgiveness if we cant forgive
our brother?)

WELLL to put it simply..this can mess a person up!! It's so judgemental and just...wrong.. even on a theological level. Christ said that it's difficult for a rich man to get to heaven (possible, but difficult). This is why many early Church Christians, and also the monks/nuns of today give away all their possessions and become poor, because in being poor they gain more of Christ. The reason this happens is because this is how we die to self and to the world!! Only if we give up ourselves will we truly find God.. and these modern churches, they're saying the opposite. That God wants us to have all this stuff. But they don't see that if we gain it, it would become a *temptation* for us to be even more worldly... God loves us too much to give us everything we ask for!

Doesnt matter though, the enemy is very capable of giving money
and earthly treasures. We just better be sure which god we're praying
to and where our heart is (where your treasure is)

Sorry I got off topic lol.. we're talking about healing.. well as I was saying, in some churches, it's like if you're sick then your faith is too small and you're a BAD CHRISTIAN..

I've heard this rumor
before, but have never really SEEN anyone act that way. I believe
that it's an immature Christian who might offer such comments.

But then I have to wonder, was the faith of the Saints and Martyrs 'too small'? No.. They could heal others with their prayers, but let themselves suffer, for the sake of God's Kingdom. This takes MORE faith.. they believed that God will use their suffering, without any signs or evidence or instant results.

I dont see what suffering has over being healed.
Why would someone "let themselves" suffer if they
have a choice?

The Martyrs could have asked God to deliver them from their enemies, instead they died for Christ, trusting Him that everything He said is true.

Again why die if God will deliver you from your enemies hands??
David often cried out to God to deliver him from the hand of his enemy.
I dont see what the value is, if you're dead, you're not able to feed
the poor, heal the sick, comfort those who are hurt etc.
Please help me to understand what you mean. (If you choose)

So...yes we should have faith when we pray, yes we should trust God with all our hearts, and yes we should really believe when we ask for healing.. but if nothing happens...we shouldn't get discouraged...we should STILL TRUST GOD...

and this consists in trusting Him that even though our prayers weren't answered, that is for the best, that He knows what He is doing, and will bring everything to good. At its best, it's a submission to God's will inspite of ones own suffering; saying: Lord if this is Your will, that is enough for me, even if I dont get anything in return and none of my prayers will ever be answered.

Amen, even if He answers no request whatsoever.
We love HIm because of who He is, not what He gives.

above all, we should just be surrendered to God's will.

And I have to work on this myself, so I'm not speaking from a pedestal here.

God bless

What makes this easier imo, is knowing that when I've chosen
MY will, rather than HIS will.... things havent turned out so well
So the reason that I desire to live in God's will is actually a pretty self centered reason. I cannot lie

Sounds like you have a lot of interesting ideas
floating around in that head of yours.
God bless you,
sunlover

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

What do you think Jesus meant by that comment?
Do you think He was serious or kidding?
Literal or figurative?
Just curious about your opinion.
(I havent moved any mountains of the earthly type)
love,
sunlover

Greetings Sun. The audience were the Jews in Jesus times. He spoke in a lot of parables that were Covenantle. I take that mountain in Revelation as symbolic of Mt Sinai corresponding the Temple/Sanctuary of Jerusalem.
I use a lot of Exodus for Revelation and why would they be singing the song of Moses in it .......Thoughts.

Reve 19:20 and the Beast was taken, and with him the False-Prophet who did the signs before him, in which he led astray those who did receive the mark of the beast, and those who did bow before his image; living they were Cast--the two--to the Lake of the fire, that is burning with brimstone;

Reve 15:3 And they are singing the Song of Moses, the bond-servant of the God, and the Song of the Lamb-kin saying: "Great and marvelous the Works of Thee Lord! the God, the Almighty. Just and true the ways of Thee, the King of the saints" [*ages/*nations]. [Exodus 15]

Exodus 15:1 Then sang Mosheh and the sons of Yisra'el this song unto YHWH, and they spake saying,--"I will sing to YHWH for He is exalted exalted,--The horse and his rider hath He cast into the Sea.

 

[sunlover1]

I tend to shy away from breaking down peoples view on this to far I just find the whole faith healing a very slippery slope...Because I believe He heals whom He desires.

I believe He heals who He desires too.
He will bless who He will bless,
and curse who He will curse.
Does the clay say to the Potter...

It is complicated and by no means an issue for disunity among believers.IMO

No, there ARE no issues for disunity among believers imo.
(Because we see darkly and all we really NEED to do, is
to love God and love our neighbor) Oops, was that a 'should'
do thing ticker (just teasing you ticker, hope you know that)

sunlover

 

[simonthezealot]

"Your faith has made you well"
also translated "your faith has made you whole"
also translated "has saved you"
Same word used in each case...

G4982
σώζω
sōzō
sode'-zo
From a primary word σῶς sōs̄ (contraction for the obsolete σάος saos, “safe” to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.

I think when you consider the alternative translations that it must go back to faith unto salvation if you have it then you will be unlikely of leading a life of sin which will limit the sickness as I mentioned earlier...I think this is what Jesus was speaking toward, a larger translation...
Does this make any more sense? I haven't had much time to contemplate and research this as i'd like...It'll be a good study.

 

[sunlover1]

Greetings Sun. The audience were the Jews in Jesus times. He spoke in a lot of parables that were Covenantle. I take that mountain in Revelation as symbolic of Mt Sinai corresponding the Temple/Sanctuary of Jerusalem.
I use a lot of Exodus for Revelation and why would they be singing the song of Moses in it .......Thoughts.

Reve 19:20 and the Beast was taken, and with him the False-Prophet who did the signs before him, in which he led astray those who did receive the mark of the beast, and those who did bow before his image; living they were Cast--the two--to the Lake of the fire, that is burning with brimstone;

Reve 15:3 And they are singing the Song of Moses, the bond-servant of the God, and the Song of the Lamb-kin saying: "Great and marvelous the Works of Thee Lord! the God, the Almighty. Just and true the ways of Thee, the King of the saints" [*ages/*nations]. [Exodus 15]

Exodus 15:1 Then sang Mosheh and the sons of Yisra'el this song unto YHWH, and they spake saying,--"I will sing to YHWH for He is exalted exalted,--The horse and his rider hath He cast into the Sea.

That's awesome LLOJ. Thanks so much for answering me!!!

Hey, I have to confess that I dont really understand much of revelation
at this time, but I have another question for YOU.
Do you believe in healing? Because I have one heckuva headache.
I think it's my neck.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

That's awesome LLOJ. Thanks so much for answering me!!!

Hey, I have to confess that I dont really understand much of revelation
at this time, but I have another question for YOU.
Do you believe in healing? Because I have one heckuva headache.
I think it's my neck.

Greetings. Yes I believe in healing.

 

[spiritman]

The Greek word for salvation and being made whole/healed are the same.

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved <4982>.

Mt 9:22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole <4982>. And the woman was made whole <4982> from that hour.

Ac 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved <4982>.

Ac 4:9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole <4982>;

Ac 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved <4982>.

Ac 14:9 The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed <4982>,

There's a lot more but this should suffice.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Edit...no post.

 

[spiritman]

Jesus made no distinction between sin and sickness.

Mt 9:5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk? KJV

Lu 5:23 Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up and walk? KJV

Mt 9:5 For which is easier, to say, &#8216;Your sins are forgiven,&#8217; or to say, &#8216;Arise and walk&#8217;? EMTV

Lu 5:23 Which is easier, to say, &#8216;Your sins are forgiven you,&#8217; or to say, &#8216;Arise and walk&#8217;? EMTV

 

[sunlover1]

Greetings. Yes I believe in healing.

Well what I MEANT to say was, do you believe in healing and
will you pray for my headache! lol.
but maybe someone already picked up on that because it's from a
six to about a four right now.

I wonder if sometimes we ask God to heal things that He's already
provided for. For instance, let's say you give your son a house
and all of the foods and minerals etc that he needs for life...
and then he get's hungry and feeble and comes to you saying,
"daddy, please take this infirmity away for me"...
Wouldnt you be a better daddy if you said, "Son! what I've
already GIVEN you is sufficient for you"
I mean we do want our kids to become solid mature individuals..

(IOW , should I pop an ibuprofen? )
But iirc, you cannot take ibuprofen with wine, right?
Am I a pain tonight?

 

[spiritman]

This greek word is also used for whole

3650. holos hol'-os a primary word; "whole" or "all", i.e. complete (in extent, amount, time or degree), especially (neuter) as noun or adverb:--all, altogether, every whit, + throughout, whole. [Used 109 times]

That's not the same Greek word for salvation or healing.
And I have not seen it used to describe it as such.

Peace

 

[sunlover1]

"Your faith has made you well"
also translated "your faith has made you whole"
also translated "has saved you"
Same word used in each case...

G4982
&#963;&#969;&#769;&#950;&#969;
so&#772;zo&#772;
sode'-zo
From a primary word &#963;&#969;&#834;&#962; so&#772;s&#772; (contraction for the obsolete &#963;&#945;&#769;&#959;&#962; saos, “safe”); to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.

I think when you consider the alternative translations that it must go back to faith unto salvation if you have it then you will be unlikely of leading a life of sin which will limit the sickness as I mentioned earlier...I think this is what Jesus was speaking toward, a larger translation...
Does this make any more sense? I haven't had much time to contemplate and research this as i'd like...It'll be a good study.

I think this would be a good study too simon.
Wholeness/salvation/health etc.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

This greek word is also used for whole

3650. holos hol'-os a primary word; "whole" or "all", i.e. complete (in extent, amount, time or degree), especially (neuter) as noun or adverb:--all, altogether, every whit, + throughout, whole. [Used 109 times]

That's not the same Greek word for salvation or healing.
And I have not seen it used to describe it as such.

Peace

Ok...........

Zechariah 2:13 Be-hushed! All of flesh from faces of YHWH, that He is roused from habitation of holiness of Him.

Luke 3:6 And shall-be-seeing All flesh the Salvation of the God.'

Reve 19:17 And I perceived one messenger standing in the sun and he cries in voice, great, saying to all the birds, the ones flying in the mid heaven, "hither! be ye being gathered! into the Supper, the great, of the God. 18 That ye may be eating fleshes............"

 

[spiritman]

Well what I MEANT to say was, do you believe in healing and
will you pray for my headache! lol.
but maybe someone already picked up on that because it's from a
six to about a four right now.

I wonder if sometimes we ask God to heal things that He's already
provided for. For instance, let's say you give your son a house
and all of the foods and minerals etc that he needs for life...
and then he get's hungry and feeble and comes to you saying,
"daddy, please take this infirmity away for me"...
Wouldnt you be a better daddy if you said, "Son! what I've
already GIVEN you is sufficient for you"
I mean we do want our kids to become solid mature individuals..

(IOW , should I pop an ibuprofen? )
But iirc, you cannot take ibuprofen with wine, right?
Am I a pain tonight?

Hope its gone.

 

[spiritman]

Jesus made no distinction between sin and sickness.

Mt 9:5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk? KJV

Lu 5:23 Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up and walk? KJV

Mt 9:5 For which is easier, to say, &#8216;Your sins are forgiven,&#8217; or to say, &#8216;Arise and walk&#8217;? EMTV

Lu 5:23 Which is easier, to say, &#8216;Your sins are forgiven you,&#8217; or to say, &#8216;Arise and walk&#8217;? EMTV

Just to clarify. I don't believe everytime a christian is sick that he/she has necessarily sinned. We know that the devil comes to steal, kill, and destroy and we must resist him. Sometimes we may have to battle in order to hold on to what we have in Christ. Fight the good fight of faith. His goal is to try and take that seed of promise out of your heart so that you no longer believe in healing.

Whenever one takes a stand for healing expect an attack from the devil. He will try to make you think healing is not for you and even give you some symptoms. But we must remember that we have authority over him. Take a stance against him and he will flee in terror.

 

[ARBITER01]

Just to clarify. I don't believe everytime a christian is sick that he/she has necessarily sinned. We know that the devil comes to steal, kill, and destroy and we must resist him. Sometimes we may have to battle in order to hold on to what we have in Christ. Fight the good fight of faith. His goal is to try and take that seed of promise out of your heart so that you no longer believe in healing.

Whenever one takes a stand for healing expect an attack from the devil. He will try to make you think healing is not for you and even give you some symptoms. But we must remember that we have authority over him. Take a stance against him and he will flee in terror.

You seem to be talking about Word of Faith principles whether you know it or not.

The problem with that is those principles tend to seek the sovereignty of GOD in healing when HIS structure is through the gifts operating in the body of Christ. GOD moved through Jesus 9 times out of 10 for healing, and we are now His representative body down here that GOD wants to move through also.

Yes, GOD is sovereign and can move outside of the gifts, but the times that HE did as compared to the times that HE operated through prophets and especially through Jesus, are completely out of proportion. GOD is not going to give credit to the cessionalists and their assertions that the gifts have ceased operation. HE is still going to move through the body of Christ with the gifts of healings, and it is HIS preferred method verses outside of them.

 

[spiritman]

You seem to be talking about Word of Faith principles whether you know it or not.

The problem with that is those principles tend to seek the sovereignty of GOD in healing when HIS structure is through the gifts operating in the body of Christ. GOD moved through Jesus 9 times out of 10 for healing, and we are now His representative body down here that GOD wants to move through also.

Yes, GOD is sovereign and can move outside of the gifts, but the times that HE did as compared to the times that HE operated through prophets and especially through Jesus, are completely out of proportion. GOD is not going to give credit to the cessionalists and their assertions that the gifts have ceased operation. HE is still going to move through the body of Christ with the gifts of healings, and it is HIS preferred method verses outside of them.

?